Central Park “Karen”

I don't know where you live, but that's sure not the way it works in most places.

Keep in mind that the purpose of bond (bail) is to ensure that the defendant shows up for their court appearances. Nothing else. For most minor crimes, pay $1 and show your voter's registration and you are out.

If you don't get out that way from the police station, you go to the county jail and go to a bond hearing. Sometimes the bond hearings are the same day, but usually the defendant is in jail overnight and has a bond hearing the next morning.

The purpose of the bond hearing is to get people OUT of jail, not keep them in jail -- because it's not necessary except for major violent crimes, and the jails are already crowded. There are representatives of many community organizations at the bond hearings, and if the defendant has community ties they are usually released to one of those organizations -- with zero cost. To reiterate, the judges are pushing hard to get people OUT of jail.

After review by prosecutors, the case is filed formally with the court system.

The next step is a preliminary hearing, during which three major things happen:
  • The court determines whether the defendant is represented by an attorney. If not, and if the defendant can't afford an attorney, a public defender is appointed to provide legal representation.
  • The judge reviews the charging documents and rules on whether there is sufficient legal cause to go forward with prosecution. If not, the case is dismissed.
  • The defendant enters a plea. Quite often in minor cases, the prosecutor and defense attorney have already reached an agreement and the case is disposed of right there with no jail time. MOST minor cases are resolved that way.
  • Absent any plea deal, the case is scheduled for trial. The defendant remains free, and it free to work, travel, etc.
I have multiple friends who are public defenders in multiple jurisdictions around the country. Their black and brown clients are held without bail at a significantly higher rate than their white clients (for the same alleged crimes). Their black and brown clients bail is significantly higher than $1 if they are offered bail. Due to socio-economic factors they are considered greater flight risks. Not to mention the studies that show that bail does not significant impact the percentage of people who appear in court.
 
That first case is the the exact one I mentioned. It seemed the doxxer gained a former address so he didn't live there anymore. That poor guy that died not having a clue why the SWAT team was at his address.
As for the second case that's a new one! I'll have to read that article. So glad no one was hurt there! (Thank you for sharing strange cases with me! It's fascinating!)

Swatting is closely tied to doxxing. Same with called in fake police complaints, spammed pizza deliveries, selling the residents name to advertisers, shipping hundreds of free UPS boxes (Back when you could do that). I even heard of a senator being sent tons of ... adult novelties to his home address.

I've heard of various pizza delivery schemes. One was of homeless kids ordering them to an address where the occupants won't pay for it. Then when it's tossed they look for them in the trash. However, a lot of times the employees will just eat them.

There have been many ways to get even. Once upon a time toll free phones used to cost the owner of the phone line maybe $1 a minute. I heard of someone who rigged a computer to call the number every minute and then hang up, just to have them rack up phone bills.
 
Arrests are very rare in these situations, with the exception of domestic violence disputes where there is a statutory requirement to arrest in some situations. Use of any force in these situations is extremely rare -- force is only used when the parties attack each other, or attack the officers.

There is a entire history in NYC for arrests (and sometimes force) being made, even for no reason at all. Hopefully what you say is true in most cases, but I don't want you or anyone else getting the idea that problematic arrests are some kind of made-up fantasy. Hence, the story of Adrian Schoolcraft, a police officer who secretly recorded police meetings for 17 months.
I'm not trying to trivialize the Central Park case at all.

What I am saying is that, if you equate or even compare, the obvious racism of Amy Cooper with the shotgun KILLING of Ahmaud Arbery, you are diminishing the importance of Arbery's murder.

Both are wrong. Both are bad. I am against both.

But don't diminish the importance of a murder by equating it with some stupid loudmouth woman in New York.
Jim, I don't see this equation you are talking about. Who said both incidents are the same? I say that the idea of fake reporting a crime against an 'African-American man' is dastardly and can lead to the kind of danger that others have been killed for. But you can go ahead and minimize this if you want. Otherwise innocuous situations sometimes lead to tragedy, and you seem to be in denial about this.

I'd be interested in reading an African-American website that takes your point of view. Surely you must be familiar with them and can point me in the right direction.
 
I’m not sure why you emphasized you. I did not equate or compare this case to any other case. I simply called it out as racism while you called it minor. I realize that any racism is not minor and will continue to speak up.
I emphasized you because I've already explained my reasoning to you twice.

You disagree, and that's perfectly fine with me.
 


Yes, this very minor Central Park dispute was totally unimportant.

The George Floyd case in Minneapolis and the Arbery case in Georgia are both legitimate big deals.

To compare this entitled little princess' outburst to either of those situations is really a slight to Mr. Floyd and Mr. Arbery.
The whole incident is unfortunate but also important.

Everyday racism is a constant fuel. Of course don't tolerate it but especially don't let it slide into ambiguity. Let it be known we are not ok with the minor stuff because when we don't, it perpetuates as a societal norm. That's how we end up with legitimate big deals.

I see how my own generation were conditioned to accept it because even without participating, letting others say and act it around us pervades the psyche and is damaging to all. And the harm of those everyday slights, I can't even imagine how quick that gets old. It sucks just as bad.
 
I’m not surprised. Not even a little bit. This is nothing new. It’s just being recorded now. Yet some people still want to make excuses even when it’s right in there face on video.

I have experienced a situation like this once or twice in my life. The person never called the cops but I have had a friend be told along the lines of “all I have to do is call the cops and say a black guy is doing X Y or Z and you’re done.”
 
I’m not surprised. Not even a little bit. This is nothing new. It’s just being recorded now. Yet some people still want to make excuses even when it’s right in there face on video.

I have experienced a situation like this once or twice in my life. The person never called the cops but I have had a friend be told along the lines of “all I have to do is call the cops and say a black guy is doing X Y or Z and you’re done.”

I'm frankly flabbergasted that she was so brazen about it since she knew she was being recorded. Most of these sort of things have come out because there was some bystander recording like with the Rodney King beating. The Minneapolis Police choking was another matter where I wouldn't be surprised if the officer thought he was doing the right thing. But in the Central Park case she clearly expresses what she's thinking and how she's going to tighten the screws on this guy. In the meantime he's probably thinking she's crazy not understanding that lying to a 911 operator in front of his camera is not a terribly wise thing.
 


I'm frankly flabbergasted that she was so brazen about it since she knew she was being recorded. Most of these sort of things have come out because there was some bystander recording like with the Rodney King beating. The Minneapolis Police choking was another matter where I wouldn't be surprised if the officer thought he was doing the right thing. But in the Central Park case she clearly expresses what she's thinking and how she's going to tighten the screws on this guy. In the meantime he's probably thinking she's crazy not understanding that lying to a 911 operator in front of his camera is not a terribly wise thing.
No person kneeling on the neck of a restrained, defenseless person until they kill them is thinking they are doing the right thing, uniform or not. They just think they can get away with doing the wrong thing.
 
No person kneeling on the neck of a restrained, defenseless person until they kill them is thinking they are doing the right thing, uniform or not. They just think they can get away with doing the wrong thing.
Agreed. People are all in an uproar because the officers involved got fired. Big whoop. Next step is being charged with a crime, manslaughter at the very least. Ridiculous.
 
Yes, this very minor Central Park dispute was totally unimportant.
The George Floyd case in Minneapolis and the Arbery case in Georgia are both legitimate big deals.
To compare this entitled little princess' outburst to either of those situations is really a slight to Mr. Floyd and Mr. Arbery.
Racist threats like that are unimportant? She threatened to call the cops. And black people certainly know they've a reason to be scared of that (and she knew there was a reason for black people to be scared of that too) even if you don't.
The crimes involved in the three cases may be different. But the racism remains racism. What you claim is a little racism and not important is important because to ignore it is to normalize it and thus perpetuate it.
I would argue that the slope is made much more slippery by people equating non-events like "Central Park Karen" with actual murders.
To blame those pointing out racism for making the slope more slippery (a fallacy) only serves racists by deflecting from them.
And you contradict yourself. You claim racism an important issue and yet claim this is a non event. If the issue of racism is truly important to someone and high on their priority list, then an issue where racism occurs, and it clearly occurred, isn't a non event. And nobody is saying throw the New York girl in the slammer for life. Nobody is saying her other crimes are as severe as murder. Nobody.
 
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I'm frankly flabbergasted that she was so brazen about it since she knew she was being recorded. Most of these sort of things have come out because there was some bystander recording like with the Rodney King beating. The Minneapolis Police choking was another matter where I wouldn't be surprised if the officer thought he was doing the right thing. But in the Central Park case she clearly expresses what she's thinking and how she's going to tighten the screws on this guy. In the meantime he's probably thinking she's crazy not understanding that lying to a 911 operator in front of his camera is not a terribly wise thing.

Imagine what she has done when she’s not being recorded.
 
Imagine what she has done when she’s not being recorded.
Exactly! This is why I totally understand her losing her job. I have seen so many comments (on articles, not just this thread) where people really believe that it's ridiculous for anyone to ever be fired for something that they did while they were not at work. But your (perceived) ethics and core values are part of the reason your employer chooses you. If that is lost, why should they be forced to continue to employ you?

If I knew without any doubt (due to an incident that occurred at or outside of work) that an employee is hateful and willing to be deceitful and manipulative for her own gain or to harm another person, how could I trust her to treat patients with dignity when she's alone with them, or to manage our company finances with integrity, or any number of other jobs where she was working independently? I would feel like she needed to be monitored at all times to make sure she wasn't lying/stealing/treating people poorly.
 
I emphasized you because I've already explained my reasoning to you twice.

You disagree, and that's perfectly fine with me.

I got it. You have mansplained, and your emphasis suggests frustration that I won’t capitulate and agree with you that the park incident is unimportant.

So I’ll reiterate my point, Racism is terrible in any form and minimizing it, as you have done several times, only serves to normalize it and allow it to continue.
 
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Agreed. People are all in an uproar because the officers involved got fired. Big whoop. Next step is being charged with a crime, manslaughter at the very least. Ridiculous.
I live in the Minneapolis area and have not seen where people are in an uproar because the officers were fired. IMHO people here believe it is justified.
The investgation is just starting but moving slow; I am hoping they are moving thoughtfully to make sure there are no errors so prosecution is flawless as possible. Though the officers should be arrested and in jail, right now, they are not. Apparently laws do not apply to them.......what?

The Minneapolis police force has had issues for many years, cops playing judge and jury and punisher, in the field.
Poor leadership starting at the mayoral level. I am surprised it has not happened more often.
We are very sad.
 
I live in the Minneapolis area and have not seen where people are in an uproar because the officers were fired. IMHO people here believe it is justified.
The investgation is just starting but moving slow; I am hoping they are moving thoughtfully to make sure there are no errors so prosecution is flawless as possible. Though the officers should be arrested and in jail, right now, they are not. Apparently laws do not apply to them.......what?
This is a very tricky area for authorities to negotiate, and I'm afraid they are not up to the task. I agree with you that the leadership there is weak.

The key thing to remember in emotional investigations like this is to keep your eye steadily focused on the final outcome.

Yes, the investigation is going slowly. It MUST go slowly, or it's going to get messed up. There are necessary parts of the investigation that take some time. It takes time to process evidence correctly. It takes time for autopsies, and especially for toxicology without which an autopsy is not complete. But it is really important for investigators to take whatever time is needed to do the job right.

If any of the officers violated the law, I want them successfully prosecuted. I don't want to lose an important case because of a stupid mistake handling evidence or violating some defendant's rights.

If any officers violated city or department policies, I want them successfully and permanently fired. Unfortunately, knee-jerk firings usually come back to bite departments on the butt and crappy officers end up with their jobs back, with full back pay. And the saddest part of those stories is that the injury is self-inflicted by inept management.

MN has a very long and proud labor tradition, very strong labor laws, and I'm sure the police union contract contains numerous protections for their members. The department needs to go slow, be sure they are doing things according to the laws, policies, and contracts and not lose their whole case due to a stupid mistake. Hopefully they have not already done that with the knee-jerk firings.

The Minneapolis police force has had issues for many years, cops playing judge and jury and punisher, in the field.
Poor leadership starting at the mayoral level. I am surprised it has not happened more often.
We are very sad.
Yes they have, and not just Minneapolis. So have St Paul and the local sheriffs departments.

But the disturbing thing about those agencies is that they keep having the same problems over and over and over -- and nothing changes. They remind me very much of the Broward County, FL Sheriff's Department's long history of failure after failure with no corrective actions leading up to the Marjorie Stoneman Douglas disaster.

I know the MSP region is going through a very rough time right now, but you guys have to be as patient as you can be and let the system work properly. People are hurt and angry, and we see the natural reaction in the streets. But you guys will get through it.
 
This is a very tricky area for authorities to negotiate, and I'm afraid they are not up to the task. I agree with you that the leadership there is weak.

The key thing to remember in emotional investigations like this is to keep your eye steadily focused on the final outcome.

Yes, the investigation is going slowly. It MUST go slowly, or it's going to get messed up. There are necessary parts of the investigation that take some time. It takes time to process evidence correctly. It takes time for autopsies, and especially for toxicology without which an autopsy is not complete. But it is really important for investigators to take whatever time is needed to do the job right.

If any of the officers violated the law, I want them successfully prosecuted. I don't want to lose an important case because of a stupid mistake handling evidence or violating some defendant's rights.

If any officers violated city or department policies, I want them successfully and permanently fired. Unfortunately, knee-jerk firings usually come back to bite departments on the butt and crappy officers end up with their jobs back, with full back pay. And the saddest part of those stories is that the injury is self-inflicted by inept management.

MN has a very long and proud labor tradition, very strong labor laws, and I'm sure the police union contract contains numerous protections for their members. The department needs to go slow, be sure they are doing things according to the laws, policies, and contracts and not lose their whole case due to a stupid mistake. Hopefully they have not already done that with the knee-jerk firings.

Yes they have, and not just Minneapolis. So have St Paul and the local sheriffs departments.

But the disturbing thing about those agencies is that they keep having the same problems over and over and over -- and nothing changes. They remind me very much of the Broward County, FL Sheriff's Department's long history of failure after failure with no corrective actions leading up to the Marjorie Stoneman Douglas disaster.

I know the MSP region is going through a very rough time right now, but you guys have to be as patient as you can be and let the system work properly. People are hurt and angry, and we see the natural reaction in the streets. But you guys will get through it.

If a black man had assaulted and killed a police officer he’d be lucky if he was in jail....unharmed. The unharmed part would be the bonus, there is no question that he absolutely would be in jail while the investigation continued properly...
 
If a black man had assaulted and killed a police officer he’d be lucky if he was in jail....unharmed. The unharmed part would be the bonus, there is no question that he absolutely would be in jail while the investigation continued properly...
Yes -- provided that there was sufficient probable cause for his arrest.

If there was probable cause for one or more of those police officers' arrest, they should be in jail. Apparently, the people doing the investigation (and it's NOT the Minneapolis police department) do not feel comfortable yet with the evidence they have.

I suspect the missing piece is the official cause of death from the medical examiner.

The other gap in the information I personally have is the time of Floyd's death. All I've seen is that he died at a hospital "later." The time may or may not be relevant, but it's something one would need to know. I'm sure the investigators have that information.

You think the officer kneeling on Floyd's neck caused his death. So do I, even though I wouldn't normally expect a serious injury from what I saw in the videos. What I suspect happened is that the downward pressure on Floyd's lungs and heart (not the back of his neck) caused a heart attack that killed him.

But the prosecutors need the medical examiner to tell them what caused Floyd's death before they file charges.
 
Yes -- provided that there was sufficient probable cause for his arrest.

If there was probable cause for one or more of those police officers' arrest, they should be in jail. Apparently, the people doing the investigation (and it's NOT the Minneapolis police department) do not feel comfortable yet with the evidence they have.

I suspect the missing piece is the official cause of death from the medical examiner.

The other gap in the information I personally have is the time of Floyd's death. All I've seen is that he died at a hospital "later." The time may or may not be relevant, but it's something one would need to know. I'm sure the investigators have that information.

You think the officer kneeling on Floyd's neck caused his death. So do I, even though I wouldn't normally expect a serious injury from what I saw in the videos. What I suspect happened is that the downward pressure on Floyd's lungs and heart (not the back of his neck) caused a heart attack that killed him.

But the prosecutors need the medical examiner to tell them what caused Floyd's death before they file charges.

I heard on the news that EMTs stated he showed no signs of life when they arrived to the scene and that he was pronounced dead once he got to the hospital. I don’t know how true that is but I hope the information from the investigation comes out correctly.
 
I heard on the news that EMTs stated he showed no signs of life when they arrived to the scene and that he was pronounced dead once he got to the hospital. I don’t know how true that is but I hope the information from the investigation comes out correctly.
Yes, he was pulseless when the EMT arrived, they tried resuscitation in the rig and it failed. So he was dead at the scene is what is being reported. I believe an EMT cannot declare a death so it is done at the hospital, a DOA.
The film showed that the man was handcuffed and subdued while on the ground but the officer continued to kneel on his neck for quite awhile. No weapons on either side were involved.

If asphixiation by the LE caused a heart attack it is still murder, not much different than a strangulation I would imagine.
 
Yes, he was pulseless when the EMT arrived, they tried resuscitation in the rig and it failed. So he was dead at the scene is what is being reported. I believe an EMT cannot declare a death so it is done at the hospital, a DOA.
The film showed that the man was handcuffed and subdued while on the ground but the officer continued to kneel on his neck for quite awhile. No weapons on either side were involved.

Completely agree. We’ve had a patient die from a heart attack in the office. EMT told us he was gone but they can’t pronounce him so they took to the hospital and they pronounced him.

When I watched the video of George Floyd I just kept saying “wow he’s already dead.” When they put him on the gurney he looked dead to me. So dang sad. To die on the street, while begging for your life and being filmed by people who wanted to help but couldn’t. Tragic and senseless.
 

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