Can you have compassion for someone yet still hold them responsible?

[cabanafrau]

So the standard for determining responsible versus irresponsible financial preparation is -- I did things this way. Things turned out well. I have been able to build a sold financial cushion, therefore everyone has the same opportunity and should be able to achieve the same.

I don't say this blithely or with any ill intent, but I wonder how things would have shifted in OP's bulletproof lifestyle if he had been diagnosed with muscular dystrophy, cancer or ALS in 2002 and been unable to work going forward? Would his spouse have been able to pick right up, enter the work world and be able to take up the position as family breadwinner with no economic fallout? Don't forget that OP might have required assistance at home for daily living and there might have been children at the time who needed childcare as well. Both are incredibly expensive prospects on their own -- or require a spouse to remain at home to be the caregiver. I've seen cases where something like that happened to fiscally responsible people who found their entire world turned upside down and disrupted like someone shook a snowglobe. Despite their diligent efforts people in similar situations face economic ruin more often than not.

Simply because things have seemingly come up roses for someone who believes they've figured out all the angles and followed a certain plan does not mean that path will work for anyone else -- or that the roses won't suddenly be blighted by something completely unexpected, not reasonably anticipated and not the fault of the person suffering the outcome.

 

[mnrose]

So the standard for determining responsible versus irresponsible financial preparation is -- I did things this way. Things turned out well. I have been able to build a sold financial cushion, therefore everyone has the same opportunity and should be able to achieve the same.

I don't say this blithely or with any ill intent, but I wonder how things would have shifted in OP's bulletproof lifestyle if he had been diagnosed with muscular dystrophy, cancer or ALS in 2002 and been unable to work going forward? Would his spouse have been able to pick right up, enter the work world and be able to take up the position as family breadwinner with no economic fallout? Don't forget that OP might have required assistance at home for daily living and there might have been children at the time who needed childcare as well. Both are incredibly expensive prospects on their own -- or require a spouse to remain at home to be the caregiver. I've seen cases where something like that happened to fiscally responsible people who found their entire world turned upside down and disrupted like someone shook a snowglobe. Despite their diligent efforts people in similar situations face economic ruin more often than not.

Simply because things have seemingly come up roses for someone who believes they've figured out all the angles and followed a certain plan does not mean that path will work for anyone else -- or that the roses won't suddenly be blighted by something completely unexpected, not reasonably anticipated and not the fault of the person suffering the outcome.

All this. ++++

Being born on third base and getting a run is not "hitting a home run" no matter what you want to say.

I see the fickle finger of fate in much, if not all, of my good fortune. I was born where public education was good...indeed challenging. I grew up at a time when this country placed a priority on educating the populace, and gave large grants to students to be able to take advantage of that education without going massively in debt. I got a job, and sure I worked hard, but I was also fortunate enough to find a mentor with whom I really connected. I parlayed his recommendation into my next job....but he dropped dead (literally) my last day at that law firm. If he'd died a couple months sooner, I may have been SOL on my next job. At that next job, I once again caught the eye of an important senior manager, and got myself into a position where I was able to land a nifty golden parachute when the company got bought. All these things are a matter of flat out LUCK. I had friends who worked in the same industry, who found themselves out of work because their company went under....no golden parachute. They were lucky to get a portion of their pension. They also worked hard. I'm not "better" than them....I'm LUCKIER than them. And, of course, there's the big lottery win of good health....without any significant illness or disease.

I am blessed. I am not "smarter" than other people. I'm luckier than other people. I sure as hell don't want to tempt the fates by claiming that what I have is because I've worked hard and 'deserve' it.

 

[mousefan73]

So the standard for determining responsible versus irresponsible financial preparation is -- I did things this way. Things turned out well. I have been able to build a sold financial cushion, therefore everyone has the same opportunity and should be able to achieve the same.

I don't say this blithely or with any ill intent, but I wonder how things would have shifted in OP's bulletproof lifestyle if he had been diagnosed with muscular dystrophy, cancer or ALS in 2002 and been unable to work going forward? Would his spouse have been able to pick right up, enter the work world and be able to take up the position as family breadwinner with no economic fallout? Don't forget that OP might have required assistance at home for daily living and there might have been children at the time who needed childcare as well. Both are incredibly expensive prospects on their own -- or require a spouse to remain at home to be the caregiver. I've seen cases where something like that happened to fiscally responsible people who found their entire world turned upside down and disrupted like someone shook a snowglobe. Despite their diligent efforts people in similar situations face economic ruin more often than not.

Simply because things have seemingly come up roses for someone who believes they've figured out all the angles and followed a certain plan does not mean that path will work for anyone else -- or that the roses won't suddenly be blighted by something completely unexpected, not reasonably anticipated and not the fault of the person suffering the outcome.

I agree 100%. My father had cancer and the only good thing about it was that it happened when he was already retired. So he had a steady income and Medicare. As a bonus his wife will stay at home, so she was also able to be his caregiver without any additional expenses on that end. Had his cancer hit him 10 years earlier it would’ve been financially catastrophic. His wife would probably have had to join the workforce again and with her limited experience she would’ve only been able to get a part-time low-paying job . Keeping in mind it would’ve been almost impossible for her to work anyways as she was there caring for him.

 

[smilie]

OP...you are obviously proud of where you are now because of where you came from. Which is commendable. I would respect you for that. But starting a poll to judge whether or not people should be shown compassion based on their financial status and shortcomings makes me lose all respect.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

Well you should have anticipated that.


What if I prepare for a shutdown but it's not enough? The longest shutdown in history was 21 days. What if I triple that and have over 2 months worth of expenses saved. Then the shutdown goes on longer. How much should I prepare for?

I know. I don't like the way that truck drives I should stay off the darn sidwalk!!!

You should have bought enough freeze dried powdered food for the apocalypse.

 

[EveDallas]

com·pas·sion
/kəmˈpaSHən/
noun

1. sympathetic pity and concern for the sufferings or misfortunes of others.
   "the victims should be treated with compassion"
   synonyms: pity, sympathy, empathy, fellow feeling, care, concern, solicitude, sensitivity, warmth, love, tenderness, mercy, leniency, tolerance, kindness, humanity, charity

Well, we can't all be kdonnel.

I can't imagine living with or being friends with such a miserable, negative person. Thank goodness my friends and family know the actual meaning of compassion.

 

[DisneyOma]

$0

I started my first job out of college making $20,500 in 1994. The company I worked for had a 401k and if I contributed 6% they would add an additional 3%. So from day one I put 6% in the 401k. I never saw that money, never got used to making it, never got used to spending it.

The company also offered an employee stock purchase program. For as little as $25 a pay period you could buy company stock and get an immediate 50% match. So if you put in $25, you got $37.50 in stock that you only had to hold for 30 days before selling. Yet less then 10% of employees participated with the number one reason I can't afford that. How can you not afford a 50% return on your investment in 30 days?

I also setup a $50 a month automatic transfer from checking to savings.

At the start I had $0 in savings.

In the mean time my wife and I used the stock purchase money to fund our first post honeymoon vacation.

We started with $0 in savings, started saving, and enjoyed our money from day 1.

And if that stock tanked? You'd have lost that money. What if we get to another Great Depression,and you lose the 401K? Can we come back and point fingers at you and say you were not prepared for it?

 

[msjprincess]

$0

I started my first job out of college making $20,500 in 1994. The company I worked for had a 401k and if I contributed 6% they would add an additional 3%. So from day one I put 6% in the 401k. I never saw that money, never got used to making it, never got used to spending it.

The company also offered an employee stock purchase program. For as little as $25 a pay period you could buy company stock and get an immediate 50% match. So if you put in $25, you got $37.50 in stock that you only had to hold for 30 days before selling. Yet less then 10% of employees participated with the number one reason I can't afford that. How can you not afford a 50% return on your investment in 30 days?

I also setup a $50 a month automatic transfer from checking to savings.

At the start I had $0 in savings.

In the mean time my wife and I used the stock purchase money to fund our first post honeymoon vacation.

We started with $0 in savings, started saving, and enjoyed our money from day 1.

It's pretty simple. They needed that $25 to pay their bills. You really don't get it. Some people need every penny they make for food and bills and don't have extra money. Even if it's only $25 a week.

 

[wgeo]

Having got through both of these threads now where essentially most everyone is disagreeing with one person who is simply not going to change their mind, all I have to say is:

I have a lot of compassion at the moment for the poor dead horse.

 

[cabanafrau]

All this. ++++

Being born on third base and getting a run is not "hitting a home run" no matter what you want to say.

I see the fickle finger of fate in much, if not all, of my good fortune. I was born where public education was good...indeed challenging. I grew up at a time when this country placed a priority on educating the populace, and gave large grants to students to be able to take advantage of that education without going massively in debt. I got a job, and sure I worked hard, but I was also fortunate enough to find a mentor with whom I really connected. I parlayed his recommendation into my next job....but he dropped dead (literally) my last day at that law firm. If he'd died a couple months sooner, I may have been SOL on my next job. At that next job, I once again caught the eye of an important senior manager, and got myself into a position where I was able to land a nifty golden parachute when the company got bought. All these things are a matter of flat out LUCK. I had friends who worked in the same industry, who found themselves out of work because their company went under....no golden parachute. They were lucky to get a portion of their pension. They also worked hard. I'm not "better" than them....I'm LUCKIER than them. And, of course, there's the big lottery win of good health....without any significant illness or disease.

I am blessed. I am not "smarter" than other people. I'm luckier than other people. I sure as hell don't want to tempt the fates by claiming that what I have is because I've worked hard and 'deserve' it.

Ironically the exact wording of the bolded went through my mind regarding this discussion. I know a few people with this very same blindspot, convinced they are the sole architects of their success. A dangerous personality type to run across in positions of authority.

 

[Wishing on a star]

Having got through both of these threads now where essentially most everyone is disagreeing with one person who is simply not going to change their mind, all I have to say is:

I have a lot of compassion at the moment for the poor dead horse.

So true...
And, just in the interest of adding some levity here....
Too funny Hahahahaha!!!! I guess I saw a small spark of humor.

 

[Wishing on a star]

Ironically the exact wording of the bolded went through my mind regarding this discussion. I know a few people with this very same blindspot, convinced they are the sole architects of their success. A dangerous personality type to run across in positions of authority.

Ohhhhh, for sure.

There, but by the Grace of God, go I.....

Sometimes there are people who are the architects of their own demise. Perpetual victims... Simply unable to take any personal responsibility... (Those who sit planning their next vacation at their neighbors who had taken them in.)
Sometimes bad things happen to good people.

 

[GreatLakes]

Ironically the exact wording of the bolded went through my mind regarding this discussion. I know a few people with this very same blindspot, convinced they are the sole architects of their success. A dangerous personality type to run across in positions of authority.

If the poster you are talking about spent a part of their childhood homeless then I don't think this applies to them. Bill Gates' kids? Sure. Someone that was homeless as a child? Not so much.

That doesn't mean I agree with their stance on this thread, just that that quote is being misapplied.

 

[cabanafrau]

If the poster you are talking about spent a part of their childhood homeless then I don't think this applies to them. Bill Gates' kids? Sure. Someone that was homeless as a child? Not so much.

That doesn't mean I agree with their stance on this thread, just that that quote is being misapplied.

Perhaps you misread my comment? I believe I specifically stated "in regards to this discussion", not directing it at anyone specifically.

 

[GreatLakes]

Perhaps you misread my comment? I believe I specifically stated "in regards to this discussion", not directing it at anyone specifically.

I did misread it then. I thought you were talking about kdonnel and their stance. Sorry.

 

[cabanafrau]

I did misread it then. I thought you were talking about kdonnel and their stance. Sorry.

It's not a problem. It gets tricky conversing via written word only and I'm not very adapt at being clear.

** Made even trickier with misspelling resulting in the apparent use of a completely different word! Perhaps someday I will become more adept if I only learn to adapt!

 

[Christine]

Not trying to take the conversation in another direction but I think it's kind of ironic that the OP made the decision, very early on, that his spouse would not work. To me (who also strives for financial stability), that is one of the biggest "risky behaviors" out there. Others have laid out very good scenarios here of what happens when the family breadwinner gets struck down with something disabling. The risk to a non-working spouse, IMO, is always very high and as a family unit you are always much closer to the brink of financial tragedy. I get that people make that risk/benefit decision. I just find it funny that the OP is so risk adverse that they'd actually be comfortable with only one wage earner. That was something I was never comfortable with.

 

[msjprincess]

Not trying to take the conversation in another direction but I think it's kind of ironic that the OP made the decision, very early on, that his spouse would not work. To me (who also strives for financial stability), that is one of the biggest "risky behaviors" out there. Others have laid out very good scenarios here of what happens when the family breadwinner gets struck down with something disabling. The risk to a non-working spouse, IMO, is always very high and as a family unit you are always much closer to the brink of financial tragedy. I get that people make that risk/benefit decision. I just find it funny that the OP is so risk adverse that they'd actually be comfortable with only one wage earner. That was something I was never comfortable with.

I thought he said in other threads that his wife was a teacher. At least that's what I remember from his "people should be required to get permits to have kids" thread.

 

[tinkerdorabelle]

It would appear that many believe that having compassion for someone or their situation is mutually exclusive from also holding them somewhat responsible.

Here are some examples:

1. A worker who has no savings at all who is furloughed or let go.
2. Someone who lives beside a river known to flood who's home is destroyed in a flood.
3. Someone who comes down with lung cancer after working 30 years as a bartender.
4. A homeowner who needs a new roof but has no money set aside for the roof.
5. Someone who needs a new transmission but once again has no money set aside for repair.
6. Someone who's home is destroyed by a hurricane that lives 5 miles or less from the coast of Florida.
7. Someone who is living a lifestyle beyond their income.

My views are It is crazy, rude, and arrogant to attack or judge people on how much they have or haven't saved on a gov shutdown that affects their pay/ job when they pay taxes, is out of their control, and especially for political game playing. The idea that any would try to blame them is ridiculous.

 

[Christine]

I thought he said in other threads that his wife was a teacher. At least that's what I remember from his "people should be required to get permits to have kids" thread.

Oh maybe so then. I was relying on the one post where it was stated that the spouse was not working when the first job was started in 1994.