Autism lawsuits to continue on appeal

[SueM in MN]

Previous version of Disney’s service for guests with disabilities were called:
Special Assistance Pass (SAP) and Guest Assistance Card (GA).

I think they named the current program Disability Access Service to clarify that it was for people with disabilities, not just any guest. I’ve seen posts in various places when it was SAP and GAC where people without disabilities rationalized that it was OK for their family to use it because of reasons like having multiple children, only spending a day in each park, this was the only trip they planned to take, etc. Their reasoning was that it didn’t say it was for people with disabilities.

When a guest gets or renews DAS, there is a page of information (electronic) to read and sign that says what DAS does. It specifically says it allows guests to schedule a Return Time that is comparable to the current queue wait for the given attraction. The only things mentioned are line related and attraction waiting is mentioned multiple times. By signing it, you also acknowledge that the person has a disability requiring the service and that you accept the terms and conditions of the card.
You do have a chance to ask questions, so if someone wonders if it’s used for other lines, they could ask.

 

[maxiesmom]

Have you seen the looks & behind the back remarks people get, when they alternate between using a wheelchair or ECV & walking? In all seriousness, that wouldn't be the reason I wouldn't get one, but it is a consideration.
Thanks again for answering my question & for all the info you've provided.

What other people think of you using a mobility device shouldn't be a concern at all. They are not in your body, they don't know what you need to use to see the parks. Judging someone for using a scooter is no different than judging someone for using a cane or eye glasses. Anyone who judges you is a jerk at best, and isn't worth your consideration.

 

[mjr0483]

Techinically yes but many of us that have a child that use DAS don't stay in the parks long so it's not really a huge advantage. I'd gladly give up DAS to have a kid that could be out and about longer than 3-4 hours at a time. We still have to wait so it's not something we use on headliners because we just won't be in the parks long enough use it. Hope that makes sense.

This is our situation as well. We can't be in the parks as long as everyone else. We book our FP+ 60 days in advance just like everyone else, but we often miss more than half of our return times for various reasons whether they are spread out too far apart and my son is done and we need to leave or we get to the park late.

Obviously the GAC worked better. We also weren't ones that needed to ride over and over again.
I am also sure Disney massaged the numbers to show a small percentage of the people consumed such a large amount of the ride capacity. They needed to make a case. Just like there is a 90 minute wait for Soarin at 8:59.

Just like Universal, Disney will sell front of the line access for VIP tours. It's ok if you pay for it.

 

[gap2368]

Have you seen the looks & behind the back remarks people get, when they alternate between using a wheelchair or ECV & walking? In all seriousness, that wouldn't be the reason I wouldn't get one, but it is a consideration.
Thanks again for answering my question & for all the info you've provided.

I have never seen or heard of anyone saying anything halfway rude to my friend who also has to walk and sit thought out the day and she really looks just fine when she can walk there is no limp no slow walking nothing at all she is very good at knowing how long to sit and walk There have been times I would start out in the ECV in long lines like the safari and then when the line stops I would get up and she would sit or we would do it the other way no one said a word to us. The reason why no one care is because for the most part, people using those devices do not get any spleale treatment, for the most part, they wait in whatever line they have wather that is the FP or stand by. Thinking people will say something to you if you do not use what ever device you have all the time should be the firther from your mind. You more then likly have a better chance of getting a free FP from a CM then a guest saying something about you getting out and walking.

As our @mamabunny would say it is a tool just like eyeglasses are a tool to see you would not go without eyeglasses if you could not see it is a tool to help you enjoy your trip and be pain-free that is it nothing more nothing less.

 

[SueM in MN]

What other people think of you using a mobility device shouldn't be a concern at all. They are not in your body, they don't know what you need to use to see the parks. Judging someone for using a scooter is no different than judging someone for using a cane or eye glasses. Anyone who judges you is a jerk at best, and isn't worth of your consideration.

So true. Some people are just jerks and it doesn’t matter how disabled you are, they will still comment. Many assume if you are not sitting in the wheelchair all the time, it means you don’t need it.
One day, my daughter and I were sitting on a bench in Germany overlooking the water when we heard 2 guys behind us making comments. Her wheelchair was parked next to her and one guy said, « Look at that. It’s too bad people like that rent wheelchairs just to get ahead in lines. » The other guy agreed; I shot them both a look.
What they didn’t see was that my daughter can’t get out of her wheelchair herself. I had to lift her out and place her on the bench. She had her legs crossed and was swinging her top leg, but she even needed help with that; she can’t lift her leg to cross it herself. And, her wheelchair has custom seating and doesn’t look like a rental. All they saw was a few minutes of her day and made jerky comments about something they knew nothing about.

 

[Lilsia]

Sorry to quote the same post twice, but as I was telling my DH this info it struck me as funny. It's so generous of Disney to charge me for a wheelchair or ECV that I don't require, because my disability doesn't fit their definition of someone who needs a DAS. Honestly, I wouldn't want one, if it was free. The thought that I would have to pay extra to enjoy the parks, when we're posting on a disability thread about people expecting to ride a ride multiple times, with no wait, did make me laugh.

I guess that I don't see it as that way. I see it as everyone is responsible for themselves and should not expect a company to have to provide what you need for your medical issue. People with diabetes do not expect Disney to provide insulin, they don't give you free incontinence products, etc. It is nice that grocery stores provide the ECV's for shopping. But WDW is just too big to do that, especially with the amount of people that would take them up on that offer. And then if they run out, we all know that there will be people go ape S**t on them. "Disney ruined my vacation because they ran out of free ECVs", etc. There is something about Disney that makes people feel more entitled to get things for free I have noticed. All vacations are expensive, ever been to Hawaii? But nobody expects other locations to cater to them as they do Disney.

 

[Lilsia]

NVM

 

[gap2368]

Sorry to quote the same post twice, but as I was telling my DH this info it struck me as funny. It's so generous of Disney to charge me for a wheelchair or ECV that I don't require, because my disability doesn't fit their definition of someone who needs a DAS. Honestly, I wouldn't want one, if it was free. The thought that I would have to pay extra to enjoy the parks, when we're posting on a disability thread about people expecting to ride a ride multiple times, with no wait, did make me laugh.

Some times having a disability means paying more I use a DAS which is free but for a long time did not help with all my needs if I wanted to see the fireworks I had to pay for a dessert party ( those are pricy and I do not like a lot of desserts ) I live a few hours away and drive to Disney but I still have to stay on-site since I just can not drive home or to the hotel, after a day in the park my disability prevents me from doing this ( without my disability I could stay at a cheaper hotel off-site tried it and it was a disaster) I stayed for New years eve wanted to be at the MK it was one of the hardest things I have ever done but so worth it, I know with my disability there would be no way I could handle the busses after the midnight fireworks so I stayed at the contemporary yep very pricey new years eve. Please do not look at using a tool to help you enjoy the park do not look at it as an extra expense but look at it as you get more time in the parks since you will not be in pain do not look at it as you are giving up something but look at it as you are getting something.

The DAS will not help you find somewhere to sit it will not making walking places shorter a wheelchair ECV or roller will give you a place to sit when and where you need it it will help cut down on the walking ( roller will not) it will give you more time in the parks where you can be doing things and having fun in return you will be saving money. Please do not just put off Disney because you might have to use a mobility device some of the time. and you can use the FP system to your advantage by getting more FP once you use your first 3 I know people that never wait in line longer than 20-30 minutes you just have to refresh the app for a few minutes

 

[HarleenQ]

@LongLiveRafiki I don't understand how DAS would be ok for someone with a mental disability who can't wait in lines but not ok for someone with a physical disability who can't wait in lines? Is the only reason because they could use a wheelchair/ecv?

We go to Disney maybe 3-4 times a month and never had a problem finding a place to sit when child swapping. I've never been told to get up from a QS table. I think that would be a whole nother legal battle if they told a disabled person they have sat to long at a QS table and they have to leave.

@HarleenQ let's say it's 11am space mountain has an hour wait. You have a fast pass for tomorrow land speed say for 11am. You get DAS for SM, use your FP for speedway, and ride people mover since you still have time before you can ride SM. I just ride stand by on SM with a FP for Speedway at 12pm. You would have rode SM,Speedway, people mover, and have 20 min to spare and I would have just rode SM and speedway.

I get not everyone uses DAS to this extent but to say looking back at even your timeline I don't understand your thinking. Where there is no advantage.

I'm not against DAS just trying to understand both of your points of view.

Yes, I may have done that in that chunk of time (your example). And looking at that sliver of my park day it does seem advantageous (and can be at times depending how it is used).

However, since my daughter is unable to wait in the standby line if it's lengthy it eliminates a lot of rides unless I have a DAS return time. Where you might be able to jump into that 30 minute standby line for Buzz, we can't. If all the rides have lengthier waits, we have to find something else to do with our time. Maybe we can meet a character. Maybe we can't. Maybe we can grab a bite to eat. Maybe we can't if it looks too crowded. Our days are very much about playing it by ear outside of our 3 FP+ options.

We schedule a lot of character meals to help avoid lines and attempt to kill 2 birds with one stone - eating and meeting. While I'm in the character meal you might get 2 - 3 rides in. Then we take into consideration your example of you being in standby for SM and all the tings I've gotten done - you're still "ahead" or "equal" to what I've done. It's a very real possibility that I do not get a FP for something and am unwilling to get a return time because of the amount of time it would tie our DAS up.

It's really hard to compare apples to apples with someone that uses the DAS - everyone tours different. I don't know what is most important to you to do/see versus what is most important to us. By the time we both leave the park and look back at our days and what we've done, I'm betting it's fairly equal in what we've done - regardless of how much I squeezed into 1 of your standby waits. I can say with a pretty fair amount of certainty that DAS users are not crushing double the amount of stuff compared to a non DAS user on a given day. I think MK is also more difficult to give examples with because there's so much more compared to the other parks. There's much more to do while your DAS time is tied up.

To be perfectly honest, I've never even ridden the Speedway or People Mover! Our time is typically spent on that stupid card game thing because the standby lines aren't doable. Just depends on the timing.

 

[HarleenQ]

If that's the case, they need to stop calling it Disability Access Service. That's a misnomer. It doesn't include physically disabilities at all. Some people who are physically disabled don't require a wheelchair or ECV.

I wouldn't call it a misnomer. It IS for disabilities, but having a disability doesn't necessarily mean you need the DAS.

For someone who needs to sit frequently or can't stand long in general - they want a seat when they need it. The only way to guarantee a seat is a wheelchair or EVC. It solves the problem of needing to sit/stand at will, etc. Could the DAS also offer them a benefit to their issue? Sure. But that's where Disney gets to decide what accommodation they provide. Offering wheelchairs and EVCs allows guests to solve their problem AND go through standby lines versus adding more bodies to the FP+ line with the DAS.

Again, it may not be preferred, and plenty of people feel offended at the idea... but it's a good solution. Even when it isn't liked.

What happens if a guest who needs to sit down at will can't find a seat? They sit on the ground? Not an appropriate solution. I used to work for the Resorts phone line and some of the things people would ask for the old GAC for were mind blowing - my favorites were a boy with a broken arm because he'll get fatigued faster throughout the day, and a pregnant woman just because she's pregnant. I have a feeling it's part of the reason Disability is in the new program name.

 

[Betty Rohrer]

@LongLiveRafiki I don't understand how DAS would be ok for someone with a mental disability who can't wait in lines but not ok for someone with a physical disability who can't wait in lines? Is the only reason because they could use a wheelchair/ecv?

We go to Disney maybe 3-4 times a month and never had a problem finding a place to sit when child swapping. I've never been told to get up from a QS table. I think that would be a whole nother legal battle if they told a disabled person they have sat to long at a QS table and they have to leave.

@HarleenQ let's say it's 11am space mountain has an hour wait. You have a fast pass for tomorrow land speed say for 11am. You get DAS for SM, use your FP for speedway, and ride people mover since you still have time before you can ride SM. I just ride stand by on SM with a FP for Speedway at 12pm. You would have rode SM,Speedway, people mover, and have 20 min to spare and I would have just rode SM and speedway.

I get not everyone uses DAS to this extent but to say looking back at even your timeline I don't understand your thinking. Where there is no advantage.

I'm not against DAS just trying to understand both of your points of view.

I have been when they had a CM stopping anyone without food from sitting at CS tables disabled or otherwise. it is wise to not plan on being able to sit there without food. not told to leave but not allowed to sit without food or drinks

 

[SPLzero]

So because someone can walk and move around but has difficult time standing still for a long period of time they should be forced to use a wheelchair the entire day and not use DAS? It sounds like the reason why there are disability passes in the first place.

 

[HarleenQ]

So because someone can walk and move around but has difficult time standing still for a long period of time they should be forced to use a wheelchair the entire day and not use DAS? It sounds like the reason why there are disability passes in the first place.

Well, I guess it can sound that way to you, but that doesn't make it true. To me, it sounds like one of the reasons wheelchairs and EVCs were invented.

Standing still is part of waiting in line. If you are unable to stand you need to sit. To sit you need a seat. A wheelchair or EVC is a seat. What happens when the FP+ line is longer than normal and the guest is required to stand longer than they're able to comfortably? Or the ride breaks down and there is a delay? Waiting for a parade or show? Without their seat, they're stuck in the same position they were before - standing which is difficult. The only solution to resolve ALL the scenarios a guest could run into is to offer a seat they can take with them wherever they go.

Whether we like it or not, DAS users put more people in the FP+ line than FP+ have been given out. It has the ability to cause stress on the system. If there is an option for someone to receive an accommodation for their issue while not adding to that stress, Disney is within their legal right to advise that accommodation over something else. That's really all their is to it.

Disney is not your home, work, area park, even your neighborhood theme park. There is an incredible amount of walking and movement that goes into a day at Disney. We all know that. People need things at Disney that they may not require to get through their normal lives.

 

[Renarr]

Some times having a disability means paying more I use a DAS which is free but for a long time did not help with all my needs if I wanted to see the fireworks I had to pay for a dessert party ( those are pricy and I do not like a lot of desserts ) I live a few hours away and drive to Disney but I still have to stay on-site since I just can not drive home or to the hotel, after a day in the park my disability prevents me from doing this ( without my disability I could stay at a cheaper hotel off-site tried it and it was a disaster) I stayed for New years eve wanted to be at the MK it was one of the hardest things I have ever done but so worth it, I know with my disability there would be no way I could handle the busses after the midnight fireworks so I stayed at the contemporary yep very pricey new years eve. Please do not look at using a tool to help you enjoy the park do not look at it as an extra expense but look at it as you get more time in the parks since you will not be in pain do not look at it as you are giving up something but look at it as you are getting something.

This (especially the bolded part) is so true. When we went on our 2015 trip before the incident that precipitated DW's need for DAS, we were travel for five days, go-from-open-to-close start-the-day-with-dawn-breakfast-end-the-day-with-fireworks non-stop no-crowd-would-bother-us no-weather-would-stop-us types. Starting with our 2016 trip after the event, we were now people who traveled for ten days, hit-the-parks-for-two-to-three-hours-in-the-morning-before-taking-a-nap-and-trying-three-to-four-hours-in-the-evening how-could-we-have-thought-we-could-stay-up-for-Fantasmic-that-one-night still-sleeping-when-the-parks-open types.

It's a very different trip. Both ways have had their perks, but we definitely have to stay more nights to get even close to the same park exposure as we got before.

 

[5kidsmommy]

So because someone can walk and move around but has difficult time standing still for a long period of time they should be forced to use a wheelchair the entire day and not use DAS? It sounds like the reason why there are disability passes in the first place.

DAS doesn't eliminate standing in line. As stated here it actually can require more walking because you have to go to the attraction to get a return time and then come back and then wait through the FP+ line.

As far as needing a wheelchair my daughter has an automomic disorder. She is usually fine in everyday life. She can sit when she needs to or just lay down. SHe doesn't use a wheelchair at home ever. At WDW it's a must for her. DAS wouldn't help her. The only thing that helps her at WDW is a wheelchair because she has stamina issues. Honestly even if her disability qualified her for DAS she'd still need a wheelchair since DAS doesn't eliminate standing or walking which are her issues.

 

[seashoreCM]

Have you seen the looks & behind the back remarks people get, when they alternate between using a wheelchair or ECV & walking?

(I put this comment in various threads in various forums over the years.)

Suitable words to put on a a T-shirt or on a hat brim or on a sign on the back of a wheelchair: "I can walk -- only to first base."

Our time is typically spent on that stupid card game thing because the standby lines aren't doable.

You mean those cards and treasure map you get from Guest Relations and you go to various gift shops and hold up a card in front of the window outside and some lights flash or a puppet comes to life or a little door opens revealing a diorama? Yes I did that; it was quite interesting. I only wish I did not have to set priorities and choose between that and another ride with a long standby line because I was shut out of the Fastpass system because my last fastpass was for Mine Train late in the evening. Whereas a similarly circumstanced DAS user could multitask and do both.

 

[kaytieeldr]

So because someone can walk and move around but has difficult time standing still for a long period of time they should be forced to use a wheelchair the entire day and not use DAS? It sounds like the reason why there are disability passes in the first place.

Becaue there are medical/mobility devices that alleviate mobility or stamina issues, Disney has determined that he accommodation for affected guests is a mobility device. You can buy your own, or rent one, or borrow from a friend or relative or local lending cloet (church, service organization, etc.)

There is no comparable device for guests with autism, or anxiety, or claustrophobia who need to wait somehere other than the queue.

 

[LongLiveRafiki]

don't understand how DAS would be ok for someone with a mental disability who can't wait in lines but not ok for someone with a physical disability who can't wait in lines? Is the only reason because they could use a wheelchair/ecv?

So because someone can walk and move around but has difficult time standing still for a long period of time they should be forced to use a wheelchair the entire day and not use DAS? It sounds like the reason why there are disability passes in the first place.

For someone with mobility or stamina issues, the problem isn't the ride queue itself. It's the walking or standing or needing a place to sit. A DAS does not help with walking or standing, nor does it provide a place to sit. Others (and myself) have touched on this, but sure, one could argue that if granted a DAS you can then find a place to sit outside the line, but that's not guaranteed. You may find a spot or you may not. You may have to walk more to find a spot. You will still have to stand and wait in lines for QS and restaurants, bathrooms, and the buses at the end of the night. The only way to guarantee yourself a seat when you need it is to bring your own. Again, for mobility issues, the problem is not that someone can't wait in a ride queue, it's typically that someone needs a place to sit while waiting, which a mobility device accommodates. A person who for instance has a meltdown from the close quarters of the queue after a few mins has a problem with waiting in the queue itself and cannot be accommodated by any other available means as the problem is the the queue environment itself.

For someone whose problem is standing still in a queue, who doesn't need to sit but to walk, that can be helped some by creating a buffet in the line. Have someone in your group stand a couple feet behind you (or if you are by yourself, ask the guest behind you if they'd mind leaving a couple feet of space), that way you can take a couple of steps back and forth. I do this myself in lines as standing still gets my hips out of alignment and causes them to lock up, where as being able to pace a couple of feet back and forth helps to prevent that from happening.

We go to Disney maybe 3-4 times a month and never had a problem finding a place to sit when child swapping. I've never been told to get up from a QS table. I think that would be a whole nother legal battle if they told a disabled person they have sat to long at a QS table and they have to leave.

Again, others have touched on this, but Disney is fully within their legal rights to only allow guests that are buying something from the QS to use the tables. As long as they aren't discriminating by saying fully abled guests can sit without purchase but disabled guests cannot, then there is no legal issue. And CMs really aren't trying to be mean by enforcing this. It's not really fair to other guests who have a tray full of food and no where to sit to eat because others are lingering at the tables long after they have eaten or haven't purchased food at all and are just looking for a place to rest. It's about use of the tables provided for guests who purchase food to be able to sit at to eat. On my last trip, I even saw CMs not allowing parties to save a table while the rest of their group waited in line to order, as it prevented others who already had their food from being able to sit and eat.

 

[DisneyOma]

All the extra waiting adds up over the day and trip and it really isn't equal or fair access not to mention the difficulty of an unexpected wait of that length in a noisy and crowded loading area with people shoving and bumping into you as they pass by since the disabled person in their party can transfer into any seat. Disney doesn't even have designated "safe" areas for these disabled people and their groups to be placed so they can wait in the same relaxed way that every other guest experiences. It is just being shoved to the side of a narrow path so people in scooters can hopefully not run into you.

I have yet to be in a standby queue that had a relaxed way to it. The Fp queues aren't too bad, but that's because they are usually moving. But I can't think of one queue I'd label relaxing?

While there was some of the repeated rides, that was the minority. But the allowing others to use it was a big problem that drove me nuts, so I am glad they do pictures now. Overall, from what I saw in visiting the parks (DLR) at least once a week at the time, the abuse was about 80% from the selling services (usually done by people who are disabled) and from the no disabled community and 20% the repeated rides, which yes I witnessed as well and yes, I reported clear abuses when I saw them. But technically at the time repeated ride wasn't considered abuse as it was within the rules, although not the spirit of the system, so nothing was ever done about those who did that.

I believe Disney proved that the ride capacity was severely restricted by multiple repeat riders with legitimate GACs - and put that info in their rebuttal? It wasn't the posers, it was the sheer volume of GAC holders.

When you are stuck waiting, you tend to pay closer attention.

How would you know they were not eligible for GAC?

 

[HarleenQ]

You mean those cards and treasure map you get from Guest Relations and you go to various gift shops and hold up a card in front of the window outside and some lights flash or a puppet comes to life or a little door opens revealing a diorama? Yes I did that; it was quite interesting. I only wish I did not have to set priorities and choose between that and another ride with a long standby line because I was shut out of the Fastpass system because my last fastpass was for Mine Train late in the evening. Whereas a similarly circumstanced DAS user could multitask and do both.

That's the one. It can be fun and cute, but we've also missed a ton of FP or had to move our entire day around because our autistic kid gets kind of locked into beating the whole thing.

Or if there's 10 kids waiting for the same portal, or it's not reading the cards properly... I may or may not have melted down myself doing this!