anyone ever had a surgical debreding?

jann1033

<font color=darkcoral>Right now I'm an inch of nat
Joined
Aug 16, 2003
not sure i spelled that right...have to have this done and just want some details...i am scheduled for a umbilical hernia surgery may1 but wound dr said due to my infected vascular ankle ulcer i need to postpone that and get the above done instead post haste...for some reason the umpteen times i told his staff my foot smelled like road kill evidently didn't register and they kept telling me just come in as scheduled...:rolleyes: now i'm on Cipro and he said i need this done...waiting for the surgeon to call but was hoping they could do both at the same time( afraid it might flare up my cfs and the hernia is getting bigger, more uncomfortable and needs to be fixed soon and i 'm afraid if the one surgery flares up the cfs they might not be able to do another to fix the hernia anytime soon...)
any info would be appreciated.
Thanks
 
yes but this particular ulcer is due to an congenital av malformation which causes ulcer which causes cellulitis , it used to heal and then break open but last time i was in hospital for it one dr told me it was just getting harder and harder to heal due to the scar tissue etc ...wound dr said he doesn't think the diabetes is the main blame...guessing he wants to get rid of the last 30 yrs of scar tissue to give it a fresh start but it sounds yucky to me....they tried the hypocolloid( ? another spelling mystery) dressing and wet to dry compresses but here i am, stinky and infected.
 
I'm sure it's a complicated issue, but diabetes causes micro-vascular changes in the blood vessels which make healing difficult regardless of the causes. Diabetes in and of itself is also an issue in general healing such as after any surgery. We have become very mindful of this recently, and based on the recommendations of the ADA have even taken steps to put diabetics in the hospital on a very tight blood sugar control regimen so as to aid healing since we know that even slightly elevated blood sugars will inhibit healing. Even those on pills will usually be placed on a tight sliding scale insulin regimen now...

An infection like that, in the setting of an "insult" to your body like surgery, on top of the diabetes, could cause the infection to enter your bloodstream, and you could wind up with a life threatening septicemia which is often difficult to treat and causes a prolonged, nasty hospitalization. I can understand why they'd want to treat it first, and agree they should have done something about it earlier if it was infected. I'm surprised they're using cipro :confused3 but they must have their reasons.

As far as the debridement, I'm not a surgical nurse, but I have seen them occasionally - usually if someone has a heart problem during the surgery, etc. I know it can be very painful. Analgesia is something that needs to be addressed...

Now, I'd like to see a picture of the wound and be sure to show the settings you used and make sure the composition is good...

Just kidding :rotfl2: that's a Photography Board joke I know jann will appreciate! ;)
 
I'm sure it's a complicated issue, but diabetes causes micro-vascular changes in the blood vessels which make healing difficult regardless of the causes. Diabetes in and of itself is also an issue in general healing such as after any surgery. We have become very mindful of this recently, and based on the recommendations of the ADA have even taken steps to put diabetics in the hospital on a very tight blood sugar control regimen so as to aid healing since we know that even slightly elevated blood sugars will inhibit healing. Even those on pills will usually be placed on a tight sliding scale insulin regimen now...

An infection like that, in the setting of an "insult" to your body like surgery, on top of the diabetes, could cause the infection to enter your bloodstream, and you could wind up with a life threatening septicemia which is often difficult to treat and causes a prolonged, nasty hospitalization. I can understand why they'd want to treat it first, and agree they should have done something about it earlier if it was infected. I'm surprised they're using cipro :confused3 but they must have their reasons.

As far as the debridement, I'm not a surgical nurse, but I have seen them occasionally - usually if someone has a heart problem during the surgery, etc. I know it can be very painful. Analgesia is something that needs to be addressed...

Now, I'd like to see a picture of the wound and be sure to show the settings you used and make sure the composition is good...

Just kidding :rotfl2: that's a Photography Board joke I know jann will appreciate! ;)

they used cipro about 3 or 4 times ago as well( right around the time of the anthrax scares, last time they didn't think it was gonna heal)...he did a culture so not sure if he got that back yet or not...i'm allergic to penicillin ( this just keeps getting better and better doesn't it:lmao: ) i talked to the nurse/ assistant (not sure what her title is) about the cfs issue as well but haven't heard yet what the story is...he put a saline impregnated dressing on it i changed today for the colloid one again and it did smell better, more a sweet odor now than the dead tissue odor before. ( daughter is a horse nurse and forget what bacteria she said that is not sure i really want to know;)...as annoying as this cycle of infection is it's better than the alternative) maybe if i can get the infection under control they could do it both. surgeon is supposed to call later..

i would describe as f2.8, except an inordinate amount of dof :laughing:
 
yep that's the one...( had to ask her again). the surgeon didn't seem all that concerned about me getting my batoo in there like yesterday, said just make an appointment and come in so she can check it out but did say the other surgery is out for now...i feel a little better since she was kind of nonchalant about it..and since it smells not as bad as it did. i really think i should really be on some kind of low dose antibiotic as a preventative thing so this doesn't keep happening but who am i to say;) last time i was in the hospital for 5 days and off my feet for a month so hope that won't happen again. (complain complain complain ) the" pictures from my part of the world "would be "left wall of bedroom", "right wall of bedroom" "ceiling of bedroom":rotfl:
 
If they thought it was pseudomonas then I see why the cipro. I hope it heals up for you and you get to go ahead as planned. It's so difficult to deal with these ulcers, I feel for you. We have a lot of diabetes in my family - my GM was a double amputee and long before I became a nurse I used to give my father his insulin shots. As I said before, the latest trend is to keep very tight control of blood sugars as a way of the diabetic population staying healthier and healing faster when they need to. I'll see if I can find an article for you.

http://docnews.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/full/3/4/1
 
I sometimes hesitate to post articles - but often the importance of the information wins out even though there may be something scary or unpleasant inside. This is one such article. I had to copy and paste because posting the link leads to a sign in page, not the article. I think there's some really good information for you in here, and I'd even take a copy of it with me when I see the doctor:

From Medscape:
Management of the Diabetic Foot
from Southern Medical Journal

Infection
Infection is a common and serious complication of diabetic foot wounds.[26] Infection leads to formation of microthrombi, causing further ischemia, necrosis, and progressive gangrene.[27] Massive infection is the most common factor leading to amputation. Because infection in the diabetic foot can be complex, consultation with an expert in infectious disease may be beneficial.

Response to infection is often altered in the patient with diabetes. Infection-fighting capability is often diminished because of impaired leukocyte function. Impaired leukocyte function is significantly influenced by the degree of hyperglycemia; therefore, tight blood glucose control is extremely important when infection is present. In addition, patients with diabetes and severe foot infection often do not respond to the infection with elevation of body temperature and/or white blood cell (WBC) count. Leichter et al[28] have reviewed laboratory data in a large series of diabetic patients with serious pedal infections. Despite significantly elevated sedimentation rates, the mean WBC count was 9,700/102/mm3. Gibbons and Eliopoulos[29] have also documented the absence of temperature elevation, chills, or leukocytosis in two thirds of the patients with limb-threatening infection, including abscesses and extensive soft tissue infection. Similarly, Eneroth et al[30] found that approximately 50% of patients with foot infection had temperatures under 37.8°C and WBC counts under 10,000/102/mm3.[30] Given these findings, the clinician should not depend on elevated WBC counts and/or temperature elevation alone as indications of the severity of a diabetic foot infection.

Wound Debridement Problems With Conservative Treatment
All necrotic tissue is not excised
Sinus tracts -- > necrotic tissue
-- > anaerobic environment
Infected bone and tendon remain -- > reinfection
Bacteria produce glycocalyx

Aerobic gram-positive staphylococci and streptococci usually are the cause of infection; however, gram-negative organisms are frequently present as well. Anaerobic infection is common. Leichter et al[28] found that the serious infections in their series were polymicrobial; 72% of organisms cultured were gram-positive and 49% were gram-negative.

Culturing technique is extremely important in cases of diabetic foot infection. Simply swabbing the ulcer is not satisfactory and frequently produces inaccurate results. Specimens for culture should be obtained from tissue deep in the wound after debridement.[31] Cultures should be obtained anaerobically as well as aerobically.

Antibiotic therapy with a broad spectrum antibiotic should begin immediately after cultures have been obtained; the antibiotic can then be adjusted based upon the sensitivities of the causative organisms. Many diabetic foot infections contain gram-negative organisms; therefore, the initial antibiotic chosen should be effective against gram-negative as well as gram-positive organisms. Selection of an oral or a parenteral antibiotic for treatment of a diabetic foot infection must be based upon medical judgment.

If an oral antibiotic is selected, it is not advisable to simply instruct the patient to take the medication and return in a week. In the diabetic patient, infection can progress significantly in just 24 to 48 hours.The diabetic patient taking oral antibiotic therapy should therefore be seen within a few days after initiation of therapy. In addition, the patient must be instructed to notify the physician at once if any increase in redness or drainage or any evidence of lymphangitis is noted. While many of these patients have insensate feet, the development of pain is indicative of deep infection and requires immediate attention. The development of a foul odor also indicates worsening infection and may indicate the presence of anaerobes. It is important that diabetic patients with infection monitor their blood glucose levels closely, since rising blood glucose levels strongly suggest worsening infection, even when other signs and symptoms are absent.

The criteria for hospitalization and treatment with parenteral antibiotics include sepsis, leukocytosis, PAD, and uncontrolled diabetes. Another indication for immediate hospitalization is when what appears to be a minor infection on the plantar surface of the foot is accompanied by erythema and edema of the dorsum of the foot. When such signs are present even though the patient is not septic, there is a high probability that the infection has penetrated deep into the tissues and has spread to the dorsum of the foot. Such infections require incision, drainage of probable abscess, debridement, administration of parenteral antibiotics, and tight blood sugar control.

When infection fails to respond to aggressive treatment, the wound should be debrided and recultured, since the flora may have changed. Chronic, recurrent, or treatment-resistant infection suggests the presence of osteomyelitis.

Osteomyelitis is a frequent complication of diabetic foot ulcers and infection, but it may be difficult to detect on a clinical basis. In fact, Newman et al[32] found that only one third of biopsy-proven cases of osteomyelitis had been clinically suspected. If bone is visible or if the ulcer can be probed to the bone, the probability of osteomyelitis is high.[33] Scanning techniques for osteomyelitis are not always successful. The triple-phase scan with technetium lacks specificity,[34] but scanning with indium 111 is highly specific.[35] Magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) is a helpful technique.[36,37]

Debridement Effects

Removes foreign bodies, necrotic tissue

Decreases bacterial load

Cleans ulcer bed

Increases platelets/growth factors at ulcer site

Allows better visual assessment of ulcer area

Adapted from Steed et al, 1998.

Although soaking of the feet has been a traditional approach to treatment, it is of no benefit; in fact, it can lead to maceration and worsening infection. Because the foot is insensitive, soaking may take place in water that is too hot, resulting in severe burns. Chemical soaks can result in chemical burns. Soaking the feet or using the whirlpool delays appropriate and aggressive therapy.[38]

Edema is frequently present and can contribute to vascular insufficiency by compressing the capillaries. Elevation of the feet to the thickness of one pillow can be beneficial, but higher elevation may impede circulation. Careful compression may be helpful.

Avoidance of weight bearing is essential. These patients have insensate feet and, because the ulcers are not painful, they continue to walk. The result is an increase in pressure necrosis that not only delays healing, but also can result in enlargement of the ulcer. How can non-weight-bearing status best be achieved? Prolonged bed rest is impractical and potentially dangerous because of the risk of venous thrombosis and pulmonary emboli. The use of crutches is difficult and can be dangerous, since many of these patients have some degree of ataxia due to neuropathy. A wheelchair is seldom successful in achieving total avoidance of weight bearing. For consistent weight-bearing avoidance, in the appropriately selected patient the best choice is the contact cast. A contact cast is contraindicated in patients who have severe PAD or are ataxic, blind, or pathologically obese.[39] By decreasing pressure on the ulcerated area, the contact cast allows the patient to be ambulatory but essentially non-weight bearing.[39] A recent article has reported the improved effectiveness and safety of a nonremovable fiberglass off-weight-bearing cast.[40] In that study of the treatment of neuropathic foot ulcers, there was 50% healing in 30 days in patients using the fiberglass cast, compared with 20% healing in 30 days in those using a therapeutic shoe. There was a high rate of patient compliance in the study.

The incidence of immunosuppresion is increasing in patients with diabetes because of the increasing frequency of kidney and pancreas transplants. Immunosuppression markedly impairs healing of foot ulcers and eradication of infection, and immunosuppressed patients have a higher amputation rate.[41] Limb amputation occurs in the short term for at least 15% of diabetic patients who have had kidney transplants, and it becomes necessary for approximately 33% of 10-year survivors.[42]

The worst impediment to wound healing or clearing of infection in the diabetic patient is vascular insufficiency. When an ulcer does not heal despite good metabolic control, adequate debridement, parenteral antibiotic therapy, and avoidance of weight bearing, vascular insufficiency should be suspected as the reason. In a study conducted by Mills et al,[43] all appropriately treated neuropathic ulcers and forefoot infections healed in patients with palpable pedal pulses. When foot pulses were absent and arteriography confirmed significant stenosis, foot lesions and infections healed with revascularization. Ankle/brachial indices of less than 0.50 and transcutaneous oxygen pressures of less than 30 mm Hg are highly predictive of infections that will not resolve and ulcers that will not heal. Vascular surgery should be considered in these cases. LoGerfo et al[44] illustrated the importance of peripheral arterial reconstruction. In 2,883 cases of extreme-distal arterial reconstruction, they found a statistically significant decrease in every category of amputation, and that decrease correlated precisely with an increasing rate of dorsalis pedis artery bypass.

Patients with diabetes who have limb-threatening wounds may have normal temperature and blood studies.

Finally, managed care can be an impediment to wound healing. Managed care limits the time the clinician can spend with the patient, making it impossible to take a comprehensive history, perform a thorough examination, adequately treat the wound, and instruct the patient in wound care. The clinician who must see another patient every 15 minutes cannot adhere to standards of care; furthermore, in some situations managed care delays appropriate consultations and hospitalization.
 
thanks for the article . i will print it out and give a copy to all my drs...the number of which seem to be growing by the min.:lmao: it doesn't scare me, i've come to terms long ago that probably i'd lose my leg if i got old enough due to the av mess...dr i used to go to was very forthright and always said "be glad it's in your leg and they can cut it off if they need to rather than in your brain cause you'd be dead"... such a cheery guy, always had a silver lining and ray of sunshine to spread...:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
see this imo is a problem none of them are addressing however...i have kippel weber syndrome= already circulatory problems= cellulitis= infection= rise in CFS=rise in blood sugar( i do watch that as i can tell it's due to infection..it was 207 the night before went to dr, usually is 110 give or take a few at night)=more circulatory problem etc etc etc...i don't think i am ever going to get a handle on any of these unless they start looking at all this together.. ie my pcp sees "diabetes", wound guy sees" av/pad" everyone pretty much ignores the cfs which affect temp( my temp is always under 97 since i got cfs 20 yrs ago so i never have a "fever" in anyones' eyes but mine, bp can also be really low or high, under 54 was the lowest, they always think the machine is broken but unless i have some electrical affect on the machines, they aren't:) ), adrenal messed up due to cfs (and diabetes)immune ( mine can be over or under active, swings back and forth), not sure when giant second head hernia fits into any of this due to the stuff surgeon said it caused which i just figured who knew why it was happening... so all this stuff is swirling around affecting each other and imo no one is really seeing the broader picture. i don't know how to address that because there is this fine line especially with cfs, that if you go in there "knowing"too much they don't believe you about any of it, evidently assuming you are a hypochondriac/lazy/crazy...so rock/me/ hard place. ie last time i was in pcp, she was telling me about diabetes stuff and i felt lousy due to cfs which means i have a hard time thinking...so she is asking me about MS type symptoms i told her about before and i can hardly remember breakfast much less 6 months ago so then i think she starts thinking i made up all whatever i told her before( i don't blame her , how many "i don't remember" s and blank stares can she look at before she gives up ;)) , while really i didn't i just don't remember what happened before( usually i ask husband details then write it down but this was just questions i didn't expect),,it is very frustrating,,,,next time i feel like that i'll just take husband in with me but just wasn't expecting it then.anyway, make long post even longer...
i go into surgeon tues so i hope maybe if this gets ankle degunked, it will heal and maybe that will break some of this cycle of garbage...:rolleyes: here's hoping.
but thanks for all your help and sorry to rant
 
so all this stuff is swirling around affecting each other and imo no one is really seeing the broader picture.
I understand. My medical history isn't as complicated but I do have a whole slew of doctors and sometimes I feel disjointed too. Let's see - I have a PCP and NP, an oncologist, radiation oncologist, breast surgeon, reproductive endocrinologist, gynecologist, dermatologist, and regularly deal with radiologists; and last year we threw a GI specialist and general surgeon into the mix and still never got any answers to my GI problems that I didn't solve myself. :rolleyes: I also oversee the care of my elderly mother as well as my DH, kids and dog, so I get to deal with their doctors as well as the pediatrician and veterinarian as well. Lucky me. :lmao:

I hope you get it all worked out, and happy you liked the article. I'm glad you have such a nice hobby in photography to distract you from all this! :goodvibes: I find it therapeutic, too. Have you been following the "water drip" posts on the S3 thread? Pretty funny... and good learning for me...
 
well this threw me for a loop today.. surgeon's office called & said they set it up for may 4 in her office..i said in her office, aren't they going to knock me out or something...woman said...well if you really want it they could probably give you a local or something:-)scared1: :scared1: :scared1: )...i said i have a sore bigger than a silver dollar( like 2xs the size really) and you are going to cut it out with a scalpel with no anesthetic? she said this is what the surgeon ordered...she acted like what's the big deal...whereas the wound dr said he wouldn't do it in his office since he didn't want to be peeling me down from the ceiling....and initially surgeon said she wasn't even going to say she'd do it till she saw me next Tues and her office when i made that appointment said not to cancel the pre-admission tests for the other surgery since i'd probably need the appointment for this one. a while ago they did a biopsy on my ankle( nit wit dr thought it was Kaposi cell sarcoma for some dumb reason and freaked out when it started bleeding like crazy, dripping all over:rolleyes: ) so i am picturing a giant hunk being cut out and the floor pretty much covered in red stuff, while i sit there and twiddle my thumbs??? uh uh not going to happen:confused: :confused: :confused:

i tried to get a water drop from an icicle once... harder than you'd think i have to say:laughing:
 

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