Another week, another shooting

[GreatLakes]

People always ask why a mentally unstable person was allowed to own a gun but gun ownership is a constitutional right. It is no different than the right to free speech, freedom of religion, or the right against illegal search and seizure.

Are we comfortable taking away a person's rights because they are mentally ill? Do we decide no more 5th amendment for you person with mental health issues?

It should be just as hard to strip away someone's second amendment rights as it is their first or any other right and I really hope we keep it hard for anyone to lose any of their constitutional rights.

So, this was another mentally disturbed guy with a legal firearm. He was a Marine with extensive firearm training and a history of mental illness who refused to seek help but was allowed to own a firearm. There is a serious problem in our country.

@MrsPete, AFTER McVeigh bombed the Murrah Federal Building laws were put in place to limit the sale of ammonium nitrate.

That could be done only because there was no constitutional right to purchase ammonium nitrate. It is, and should be, much harder to limit a person's access to something they are constitutionally granted. Rights are not privileges, they are guarantees you have to work very hard, and go through due process, to lose.

ETA: I don't like mass shootings any more than the next person, and don't own a gun, but I think our constitutional rights are important and I don't want it easy to lose any of them due to mental illness. And what do we do about people who are perfectly normal and develop some mental illness later in life? Do we have to start proving every x years that we are still mentally healthy enough for our rights? That doesn't sound like a country I want to live it.

 

[BadPinkTink]

I HAAAAAAATTTTE when mental health is pegged as the reason yet another mass shooting happened.

Is the US the only country in the world with underfunded mental health resources? You’re kidding yourself if you think that’s the main issue.

Nope we have mental heath funding issues here in Ireland too, BUT as we have strict gun control laws, these people can not legally own a gun and we do not have mass gun killings

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/...-health-funding-a-chance-to-improve-1.3663451

Census data shows the percentage of people with a psychological or emotional condition increased by almost 30 per cent between 2011 and 2016. The Healthy Ireland survey reports that almost 10 per cent of the population over age 15 has a “probable mental health problem” at any given time.

Almost 20 per cent of young people aged 19-24 have had a mental health disorder, with some 15 per cent of 11-13 year-olds also having experienced significant psychological illness.

In December 2017, there were almost 8,000 people on the waiting list for primary care psychology, almost 30 per cent of whom were waiting more than 12 months to be seen.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

Are we comfortable taking away a person's rights because they are mentally ill?

Yes, because it's for the safety of the populace. Just like how your 1st Amendment Right to freedom of speech doesn't allow you to incite a riot. And you can't create art that involves harming other people. Or commit slander or liable. Or threaten violence.

 

[BLAZEY]

Nope we have mental heath funding issues here in Ireland too, BUT as we have strict gun control laws, these people can not legally own a gun and we do not have mass gun killings

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/...-health-funding-a-chance-to-improve-1.3663451

Census data shows the percentage of people with a psychological or emotional condition increased by almost 30 per cent between 2011 and 2016. The Healthy Ireland survey reports that almost 10 per cent of the population over age 15 has a “probable mental health problem” at any given time.

Almost 20 per cent of young people aged 19-24 have had a mental health disorder, with some 15 per cent of 11-13 year-olds also having experienced significant psychological illness.

In December 2017, there were almost 8,000 people on the waiting list for primary care psychology, almost 30 per cent of whom were waiting more than 12 months to be seen.

Same in Canada, underfunding of mental healthcare, but no nearly daily mass shootings.

 

[Colleen27]

Thing is, this is not a gun problem. The problem is that human life is not valued.

A person who wants to take lives can do it with or without a gun; remember that the worst American terrorist event (in terms of loss of life) was perpetuated by Timothy McVeigh in Oklahoma City, and he didn't have a gun at all. Similarly, I can't remember the name of the guy who just ran over a bunch of people with his car. With or without guns, evil-doers can take lives. We have to focus on the real problem, not the tool with which all-too-many people commit the crime.

But both of those events prompted action... barriers to stop vehicles, first in front of government buildings but now even at parks and heavily traveled pedestrian paths, restrictions and tracking of ammonium nitrate purchases, etc. We as a nation banned lawn darts after a handful of injuries, baby walkers after a few hundred. Countless communities all over the country have banned pit bulls after headline-grabbing attacks. We didn't say "There will always be reckless kids or inattentive parents or backyard bombers" as a defense for the status quo.

People always ask why a mentally unstable person was allowed to own a gun but gun ownership is a constitutional right. It is no different than the right to free speech, freedom of religion, or the right against illegal search and seizure.

Are we comfortable taking away a person's rights because they are mentally ill? Do we decide no more 5th amendment for you person with mental health issues?

It should be just as hard to strip away someone's second amendment rights as it is their first or any other right and I really hope we keep it hard for anyone to lose any of their constitutional rights.

We do it all the time, and not just the "fire in a theatre" example that always gets thrown around. We don't let felons vote. We suspend protections against unreasonable search and seizure in border zones, and for purposes of counter-terrorism surveillance. Heck, we even suspend the right to bear arms for those who have a prescription for medicinal pot. But we can't do so for actual red flags that a person poses a danger to himself or others?!?

 

[longboard55]

If you actually read the second amendment, the purpose is to insure the people can not be bullied by the presidents army, which was common practice at the time with Kings. It has nothing to do with requiring to give guns to crazy people

 

[amberpi]

I HAAAAAAATTTTE when mental health is pegged as the reason yet another mass shooting happened.

Is the US the only country in the world with underfunded mental health resources? You’re kidding yourself if you think that’s the main issue.

Oh, I personally have a lot of opinions that are just too political about why it happens here and not other places, but that doesn't mitigate the mental health issue which I think is substantial.

Also, agree with @FlightlessDuck and others, some rights get suspended for the greater good. If such is ok is a personal opinion, but that's how the country works presently.

 

[amberpi]

If you actually read the second amendment, the purpose is to insure the people can not be bullied by the presidents army, which was common practice at the time with Kings. It has nothing to do with requiring to give guns to crazy people

Not giving guns to the mentally ill seems like a good idea, right? So easy.

 

[olwyngdh]

ETA: one thing I do enjoy about WDW is that I feel physically safe. I mean, you can become road kill because of some inconsiderate putz, but I don't think they'll be a shooting or a bomb. That's nice.

I lost that hope when the guy lost his gun on a ride a few years ago.

 

[longboard55]

I am pretty sure WDW recognizes safety sells and spends a lot of money on keeping us safe.

 

[amberpi]

I lost that hope when the guy lost his gun on a ride a few years ago.

The metal detector thing makes me feel better now, but I do think, en toto, that WDW is quite safe.

 

[Hikergirl]

Not giving guns to the mentally ill seems like a good idea, right? So easy.

As of now under the law, anyone who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or committed to a mental institution is prohibited from owning a firearm.
The problem is is that doesn't take in to account other people who suffer from mental illness but don't fall in to those 2 categories who already own, or are currently legally purchasing guns. We need to change that.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

I think we hand-wave these things too often with "mental illness". The guy that killed people at the Tree of Life synagogue did so because he hated Jews. The guy that killed people at the Krogers did so because he hated Black people. It's not always "mental illness". Thinking otherwise is sticking your head in the sand.

 

[BadPinkTink]

the second amendment was passed in 1791

This is 2018

America in 2018 is very different to 1791. The Constitution should grow and change as the country grows and changes.

For example, in Ireland our Constitution was written and put into law in 1937. In 1937, Ireland was a very different country and the Constitution was a reflection of the times and attitudes.

We have had 37 Referendums to change parts of the Constitution as the country evolves and attitudes change. The most recent Referendums have been remove articles from the Constitution or to Repeal previous amendments.

In the last number of years we have voted to allow same sex marriage and to allow abortion, both of which were not allowed in The Constitution

 

[amberpi]

As of now under the law, anyone who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or committed to a mental institution is prohibited from owning a firearm.
The problem is is that doesn't take in to account other people who suffer from mental illness but don't fall in to those 2 categories who already own, or are currently legally purchasing guns. We need to change that.

I didn't know those exact specifics (I don't claim to be an expert about gun ownership); interesting to know, but yes, we need to change it for sure.

 

[Hikergirl]

I think we hand-wave these things too often with "mental illness". The guy that killed people at the Tree of Life synagogue did so because he hated Jews. The guy that killed people at the Krogers did so because he hated Black people. It's not always "mental illness". Thinking otherwise is sticking your head in the sand.

And ignoring all the times it is like in this example, and looking for any other reason is also.
If we look at all the mass shootings, how many of the shooters had known mental health issues? Is it the majority of or is it a very small percentage? People can't stick their head in the sand when those numbers are in front of them right?
FTR, I don't know them, I'm asking if anyone does.

I also think that anyone capable of killing people in cold blood whether it is because they hate their skin color or religion or anything else obviously has mental issues.
Normal, mentally healthy people don't do that, even people who hate others.

 

[robinb]

I think we hand-wave these things too often with "mental illness". The guy that killed people at the Tree of Life synagogue did so because he hated Jews. The guy that killed people at the Krogers did so because he hated Black people. It's not always "mental illness". Thinking otherwise is sticking your head in the sand.

I would say that if you are racist or antisemitic enough to go out and kill people you are, by definition, mentally ill. But that's beside the point. I'm OK going for the low hanging fruit first of mentally ill people like this most recent killer (and many before him) and address the more nuanced cases later.

 

[mnrose]

Why? Every time I get in my car and get on the road, I am taking the small risk that I will be in some terrible car crash that ends my life - maybe a distracted, tired, or intoxicated driver.
Every time I walk into a school, museum, restaurant, shopping mall, concert, grocery store, church, airport baggage claim, etc, I am taking the small risk that some random gunman starts shooting and ends my life.
Just a fact of life.

Just a fact of life in America....only in America

 

[Hikergirl]

I didn't know those exact specifics (I don't claim to be an expert about gun ownership); interesting to know, but yes, we need to change it for sure.

When you purchase a firearm you have to go through a background check through the NICS system. It is a very basic questionnaire and people can lie (which I believe is a felony in itself) It asks about criminal record, and asks a couple questions about mental health.

 

[amberpi]

When you purchase a firearm you have to go through a background check through the NICS system. It is a very basic questionnaire and people can lie (which I believe is a felony in itself) It asks about criminal record, and asks a couple questions about mental health.

I knew about some kind of cursory background screen, not the mental health bit, but again, people lie every day, and hell, lots of people think they are perfectly sane that aren't. Sometimes I reckon we're all a little insane.