Another Shooting, Nashville

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Anyone who has had their 2nd Amendment rights stripped at the federal level is not permitted by law to purchase, own, or possess a firearm in any state. This includes anyone determined by a state judge (in any state) to be incompetent. Sadly, this info is not always reported to the FBI & BATF (as was the case with VA Tech), but that’s not really the point.

But, an IL Firearms license is just that - valid in IL. Having that revoked doesn’t necessarily mean his rights have been revoked nationwide.

And that's a part of the system that definitely needs fixing, but the paranoia around information sharing about firearms is at crazy levels among certain factions and it hampers effective coordination.

I was watching a British docu-series on netflix. It was talking about how people go and steal copper out of the street lamps that illuminate the highways. We don't really have that as an issue here in terms of street lamps going out because copper is stolen out of it but it's a problem there.

On a tangent, but... We actually DO have that problem here in poorer areas. It is a big part of why there are so few working streetlights in Detroit's neighborhoods.
 
Actually my comments are not aimed at gun ownership at all. The AR 15 is the only thing that I have seen out there that has been talked about getting rid of. My comments are about gun laws and regulations. Unfortunately the other things that are put out every single day on Fox News and all those radio talk shows are now a days what ordinary average people are talking like. That is what is so scary. So you tell me honestly that you don't know anyone that believes that gun regulations means they are going to take away all your guns? Do average people own AR 15s now is that the norm in your world?
Frankly I don't spend much time analyzing, probing, and interrogating anyone I know who owns guns. I guess maybe you do?

The people that I converse with, as in actually converse with, are rational, regular, average everyday people and we have great conversations. I do not converse any longer with my mother-in-law regarding majority of topics because she gets majority of her' information' from FB.

I'm not getting into a gun debate but I know from other threads you are very passionate about this topic. I just don't think every thread about a shooting needs to be about all the 'crazies' so to speak. IMO it's more apt to dicuss here the mental status of the perp and the actions of his father. I find the actions of the father to be a different thing than has other incidents.
 
On a tangent, but... We actually DO have that problem here in poorer areas. It is a big part of why there are so few working streetlights in Detroit's neighborhoods.
No I get that. What I mean is that it's not a wide-spread problem. You and another person have mentioned Detroit. To me that means it's a localized issue more confined there (or confined to blips so to speak). It's not a issue on highways across the nation. The original post that I responded to was talking about "why doesn’t every country have this problem, proportional to population?" I don't think it would be apt to say the U.S. has a real problem with copper being stolen from street lights/lamps. *could be wrong of course.
 
Frankly I don't spend much time analyzing, probing, and interrogating anyone I know who owns guns. I guess maybe you do?

The people that I converse with, as in actually converse with, are rational, regular, average everyday people and we have great conversations. I do not converse any longer with my mother-in-law regarding majority of topics because she gets majority of her' information' from FB.

I'm not getting into a gun debate but I know from other threads you are very passionate about this topic. I just don't think every thread about a shooting needs to be about all the 'crazies' so to speak. IMO it's more apt to dicuss here the mental status of the perp and the actions of his father. I find the actions of the father to be a different thing than has other incidents.

I was speaking on the gun control discussion.
 


Ya know.......
There are already numerous laws against murder but since criminals tend to ignore the laws they don't care for we have murders and all manner of other crimes every day.
The objects used by those criminals are no more to blame than forks are for making people fat, matches and lighters are for arson, or cars are for making drunk drivers.
People are the problem.
The suspect in this case had numerous run ins with Law Enforcement and the Courts after exhibiting behavior that can only be described as insane and yet he was allowed to roam freely in Public.
That type of situation needs to be addressed first and foremost.
Funny part about that is 2nd amendment “rights” are what gets talked about when ppl want tougher laws. However, locking someone up indefinitely for something they might do is also a violation of rights. It’s just not that simple. There are plenty mentally ill ppl who have similar routine run-ins with police around the country who never end up doing something like this. There is no cure & often no real effective treatment for ppl who suffer from serious mental illnesses especially delusions like this person supposedly had. There is also no reliable way to know who is actually dangerous & should be locked up. Most of the time ppl are hospitalized & stabilized & released. Compliance is a major issue with this population. So really the only thing we can do is ensure that ppl like this don’t have access to weapons which is where the father comes in in this case & should be held responsible
 
Cannot go with this analogy, guns are made for killing, AR 15s are made for killing humans, that's what they are designed for. They were originally made to be a weapon of war and that's according to the original designer. It is made to be able to load quickly and fire many shots. Even with the times and our country and civilization being completely different, guns were always to be "well regulated". Trying to be careful about going into politics. Anything that is a danger to me or others needs to have laws attached to it and be regulated, just like we do with many things in our society.

Perhaps we should have more regulations on knives as they account for more than 4 times as many deaths as rifles.

AR15s are marketed for civilians as SEMI-auotmatic rifles, and not designed for killing humans. The military uses M16s which differ due to their selective fire capability which makes them much more effective in war. Sure, ARs were originally designed for the military, but what is available to civilians now (SEMI-auotmatic AR) is not what was originally designed for the military (selective fire). ARs were redesigned for civilian sale, eliminating the selective fire option and making them semi-auto, so saying that civilian marketed semi-auotmatic ARs are designed to kill humans is inaccurate.

In regards to your comment about loading quickly and firing many shots-- many hunting rifles and most handguns can be loaded just as quickly, have similar magazine capacities, and all fire one round per pull of the trigger.

And AR 15s were designed to be weapons of war, to kill even more efficiently, quickly etc. So you cannot in any way compare cars to guns. AR 15s in particular are designed to kill, kill quickly and efficiently and not have to reload etc. so we need better gun laws and maybe some like those need to go.

Again, ARs that civilians can possess are not the same original ARs that were designed for war.

Not have to reload?! Magazines do not hold an infinite number of bullets. While magazine sizes can vary, my AR mag holds 10 rounds whereas my pistol mag holds 11. Reloading really doesn't take much time at all for anyone with experience.

If we actually listened to what is actually being said instead of the propaganda channels, you would see that no one is talking about taking anyone's guns away, and neither are the kids that are protesting right now, just possibly the AR 15 type weapons. I know many many many many people that are intelligent, respectful gun owners like my 91 year old dad who keeps his guns locked in a secure place, who was also an instructor in the army who taught people how to shoot, and even he thinks there should be regulations and no one needs an AR 15.

Why is it though that everyone is so gungho ho about how bad AR15s are? A .762 round has higher foot lbs of force than the standard .223 round in an AR, but the gun control debate never seems to focus on AKs. Many hunting rifles have the same mechanical platform and fire exactly the same as the AR, just without the cosmetic differences like hand guards and pistol grips (which have no bearing on how it fires), but no one's talking about hunting rifles. Hand guns are more concealable and account for 18 times more homicides than rifles of any kind in the US, but again, the focus isn't on them.

The fact is, most people do not understand guns and get wrapped up in what the media is telling them. Putting such a focus on ARs makes no logical sense. A semi-auto weapon is not a military style automatic weapon and will only fire one round per pull of the trigger, regardless of whether it's a semi-auto hunting rifle, semi-auto handgun, or semi-auto AR15. Either you're okay with semi-auto guns being legal or you're not. Regulating that criminals and those with certain mental illnesses can't own them is a completely different issue and should be enforced better, as this latest shooting has shown, but to focus on trying to ban one particular gun doesn't make any sense.

Do average people own AR 15s now is that the norm in your world?

What do you mean by this statement? Yes, plenty of average people own AR15s in the US, and the vast majority of those people obtain them legally and do no harm with them.
 
AR 15s in particular are designed to kill, kill quickly and efficiently and not have to reload
You need to find better news stations.

I know many who want the AR 15s that are doing it for macho type tough guy reasons or worse
Also you need to know better people, I know no one that has a ar 15 for being "macho, tough guy" actually, I don't know who has one and who don't, not a question I usually ask of someone when I meet them or even after I've know them for years.

Unfortunately the other things that are put out every single day on Fox News all those radio talk shows

Tells me about all I need to know.
 


And that's a part of the system that definitely needs fixing, but the paranoia around information sharing about firearms is at crazy levels among certain factions and it hampers effective coordination.



On a tangent, but... We actually DO have that problem here in poorer areas. It is a big part of why there are so few working streetlights in Detroit's neighborhoods.

Actually, the paranoia around info sharing is more an ACLU concern. After VA Tech, both “sides” called it a major failure on the part of the state of Virginia & both called for cleaning up the process (the same happened after Sandy Hook thigh that wasn’t really the failure there).
 
Holy moley Hiker girl, you really twisted that sentence there by only pulling a few words out of it instead of the whole thing, I was referring to the AR 15s. And yes I know people that own or want the AR 15s for macho reasons. Or worse, like I said above, they are preparing for a civil war of some type which I have to be careful about politics. Yes I'm sure there are some that just want one to go blast away at what, targets? or game to watch it explode into millions of pieces for the fun of it. Or play army man. And I've seen a lot of your posts on here and they aren't all that nice either. I think it's a trying time for many of us and I'm taking off tough guy comment said out of frustration.

I didn't twist anything you said, I copied your direct words. Taking people's AR-15s is taking away their guns.

My point still stands if you want people to listen to you, consider your view and maybe re-think their own you would get further with them if you didn't insult them.
 
Perhaps we should have more regulations on knives as they account for more than 4 times as many deaths as rifles.

AR15s are marketed for civilians as SEMI-auotmatic rifles, and not designed for killing humans. The military uses M16s which differ due to their selective fire capability which makes them much more effective in war. Sure, ARs were originally designed for the military, but what is available to civilians now (SEMI-auotmatic AR) is not what was originally designed for the military (selective fire). ARs were redesigned for civilian sale, eliminating the selective fire option and making them semi-auto, so saying that civilian marketed semi-auotmatic ARs are designed to kill humans is inaccurate.

In regards to your comment about loading quickly and firing many shots-- many hunting rifles and most handguns can be loaded just as quickly, have similar magazine capacities, and all fire one round per pull of the trigger.



Again, ARs that civilians can possess are not the same original ARs that were designed for war.

Not have to reload?! Magazines do not hold an infinite number of bullets. While magazine sizes can vary, my AR mag holds 10 rounds whereas my pistol mag holds 11. Reloading really doesn't take much time at all for anyone with experience.



Why is it though that everyone is so gungho ho about how bad AR15s are? A .762 round has higher foot lbs of force than the standard .223 round in an AR, but the gun control debate never seems to focus on AKs. Many hunting rifles have the same mechanical platform and fire exactly the same as the AR, just without the cosmetic differences like hand guards and pistol grips (which have no bearing on how it fires), but no one's talking about hunting rifles. Hand guns are more concealable and account for 18 times more homicides than rifles of any kind in the US, but again, the focus isn't on them.

The fact is, most people do not understand guns and get wrapped up in what the media is telling them. Putting such a focus on ARs makes no logical sense. A semi-auto weapon is not a military style automatic weapon and will only fire one round per pull of the trigger, regardless of whether it's a semi-auto hunting rifle, semi-auto handgun, or semi-auto AR15. Either you're okay with semi-auto guns being legal or you're not. Regulating that criminals and those with certain mental illnesses can't own them is a completely different issue and should be enforced better, as this latest shooting has shown, but to focus on trying to ban one particular gun doesn't make any sense.



What do you mean by this statement? Yes, plenty of average people own AR15s in the US, and the vast majority of those people obtain them legally and do no harm with them.

The AR-15 is the most popular rifle in America. Plenty of regular people own them. I know for a fact at least 2 of my coworkers (1 male, 1 female) own them.

The military M16 was designed to “incapacitate” enemy soldiers at ranges up to 300 yards. This differs from the rifles our soldiers carried from the 1870’s through the 1950’s which were designed to kill a horse at ranges up to 800 yards. The M16 was designed specifically for jungle warfare where the traditional battle lines do not exist and resupplying soldiers is inconvenient. The result was a lighter rifle with lighter ammunition, but also a significant DEcrease in power.
 
Actually my comments are not aimed at gun ownership at all. The AR 15 is the only thing that I have seen out there that has been talked about getting rid of. My comments are about gun laws and regulations. Unfortunately the other things that are put out every single day on Fox News and all those radio talk shows are now a days what ordinary average people are talking like. That is what is so scary. So you tell me honestly that you don't know anyone that believes that gun regulations means they are going to take away all your guns? Do average people own AR 15s now is that the norm in your world?

Do you regularly watch FOX news and listen to conservative talk radio? Unless that is all you watch you are "hearing" what some people are saying. Are YOU actually hearing that, or are you just repeating other's opinions on what is on FOX news and talk radio?
I listen to talk radio (not by choi

I know many gun owners, and from what I do know about them (which admittedly isn't everything) they don't think anyone is coming to take them all from their homes. However, they do feel that their right to own them is being infringed on a little but at a time.
And I won't share their thoughts on banning AR-15's because you clearly have a bias against people who do and you probably aren't going to listen to the facts- like MOST gun killings are not done by them.
 
Perhaps we should have more regulations on knives as they account for more than 4 times as many deaths as rifles.

That's only because thousands of gun deaths reported to the FBI don't include what type of gun is used. For example, in 2015, the FBI reported 9,778 gun deaths. Of those, 2,477 (25%) did not state the type of firearm used. There isn't reliable way to say whether this statistic is accurate. This is also based on the FBI's Uniform Crime Report (UCR), which doesn't usually line up with the CDC's numbers. For example, in 2015, the UCR reported 9,778 gun deaths while the CDC reported 12,979.
 
That's only because thousands of gun deaths reported to the FBI don't include what type of gun is used. For example, in 2015, the FBI reported 9,778 gun deaths. Of those, 2,477 (25%) did not state the type of firearm used. There isn't reliable way to say whether this statistic is accurate. This is also based on the FBI's Uniform Crime Report (UCR), which doesn't usually line up with the CDC's numbers. For example, in 2015, the UCR reported 9,778 gun deaths while the CDC reported 12,979.

With all that said, deaths by rifle would likely be lower than knives because handguns and knives are easier to get a hold of illegally than rifles. Semi-automatic rilfes will be more often used in mass shootings, but there are, of course, more run-of-the-mill muggings, etc., than mass shootings.

And on top of all of that, knives are regulated both at the state and federal level.
 
That's only because thousands of gun deaths reported to the FBI don't include what type of gun is used. For example, in 2015, the FBI reported 9,778 gun deaths. Of those, 2,477 (25%) did not state the type of firearm used. There isn't reliable way to say whether this statistic is accurate. This is also based on the FBI's Uniform Crime Report (UCR), which doesn't usually line up with the CDC's numbers. For example, in 2015, the UCR reported 9,778 gun deaths while the CDC reported 12,979.

I think it’s probably a fair assumption to believe the “type unknown” firearms are going to be reasonably proportional to the “type known”. That would indicate the vast majority of the “type unknown” will most likely be handguns.
 
I have learned through all these discussions and those IRL, that the AR-15 is just another kind of gun. If they (the bad guys) don't have those, they will just move on to something else.

IMO, (and my opinion changes as I get more information about things) there is a glitch in the system. Whether its between states and their different laws, the FBI, computer systems and the data, whatever, there is something that is failing. And before we decide we need MORE laws and MORE control, first we need to make sure that we have is being used and is working. Then we can move on to other laws if we need them. More laws will not help anything if the ones we have are not being enforced.

If any entity took this guy's guns, then they should have not been given to his father. They were confiscated because he broke the law. If they take someone's car in a drug bust, where does the car go? Not to the family and certainly not back to the drug dealer. It should be the same thing.

The FBI fell down on the job with the guy in the FL shooting, too. As did the school. And the child services. And local law enforcement.

We have the laws in place to protect us. Its using them and enforcing them we seem to be having a little trouble with.
 
With all that said, deaths by rifle would likely be lower than knives because handguns and knives are easier to get a hold of illegally than rifles. Semi-automatic rilfes will be more often used in mass shootings, but there are, of course, more run-of-the-mill muggings, etc., than mass shootings.

And on top of all of that, knives are regulated both at the state and federal level.

They may be but you can kill someone with a butcher knife. It doesn't have to be a switchblade or whatever.
 
With all that said, deaths by rifle would likely be lower than knives because handguns and knives are easier to get a hold of illegally than rifles. Semi-automatic rilfes will be more often used in mass shootings, but there are, of course, more run-of-the-mill muggings, etc., than mass shootings.

And on top of all of that, knives are regulated both at the state and federal level.

But perhaps they should be more regulated since they are responsible for more deaths, right? :confused3 Isnt this whole thing about trying to prevent death?

And if you get rid of rifles, mass shootings will still happen. Plenty of mass shootings occur with handguns and if we ban rifles, bad people will just substitute a rifle for a handgun.
 
But perhaps they should be more regulated since they are responsible for more deaths, right? :confused3 Isnt this whole thing about trying to prevent death?

And if you get rid of rifles, mass shootings will still happen. Plenty of mass shootings occur with handguns and if we ban rifles, bad people will just substitute a rifle for a handgun.

There’s really only been one mass shooting where the outcome would have been different with a handgun, and that’s Vegas. And the reason a rifle mattered there was because of the distance between the shooter & his victims.

Of course what we also know about Vegas was that in addition to AR-15’s, the shooter also fired hundreds of rounds of .308 ammo which is more than twice as powerful as an AR-15. What we don’t know is which caliber he used most, nor which resulted in the most casualties.
 
They may be but you can kill someone with a butcher knife. It doesn't have to be a switchblade or whatever.
Exactly!!
The only way to disarm someone is to remove their arms and legs.
The 2015 FBI UCR Report shows that 644 people were murdered by use of hands, fists, and feet.
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/crime-in-the-u.s.-2015/tables/table-20
And in 2016 656 people were murdered by use of hands, fists, and feet.
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/tables/table-12
As I've said before the problem isn't weapons, or objects used as weapons, the problem is humans.
 
I have learned through all these discussions and those IRL, that the AR-15 is just another kind of gun. If they (the bad guys) don't have those, they will just move on to something else.
I will grant you that they may move onto something else, but the severity of the injuries from AR-15s and their ilk are far worse than an ordinary handgun or rifle. If you have not read this yet, please take a moment to read the first hand account of a doctor who treated victims at the Parkland shooting: https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...land-should-change-the-debate-on-guns/553937/ .
 
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