Another discrimination WWYD

[sam_gordon]

Most middle-schoolers I know wouldn't really comfortable with any teacher seeing them in the shower - male/female/straight/gay/whatever. So I'd be willing to bet any supervision in that area is just shouting "knock off the dawdling and get to class" from the doorway.

Totally agree. I just think it's a double standard that many parents would complain if it was a male teacher watching their daughters, but if it's a lesbian, eh, "it's not sexual".

 

[Colleen27]

Or require them to volunteer themselves! I guarantee they would change their tune pretty quick if was going to cost them any time of their own LOL

Not this family. If the complaint came from who I suspect it did, both parents volunteer extensively and the time commitment wouldn't be an obstacle. But like me and my co-coach, they know nothing at all about the sport.

These aren't actually related. You can be either or both.

I do know that. I'm just not sure what the specific complaint is going to turn out to be because I don't know how much the complaining parent knows - I'm not sure if they realize that the student identifies and presents as male, or if they only know that a child they knew as female took a girlfriend to homecoming this year.

 

[wgeo]

Just curious - did anyone ever shower in middle or high school and actually have someone watch them? In my limited personal experience the showers were in the same locker room as an "office" with an adult in it, but the adult didn't sit there and watch over the showers in any way.

 

[bcla]

Just curious - did anyone ever shower in middle or high school and actually have someone watch them? In my limited personal experience the showers were in the same locker room as an "office" with an adult in it, but the adult didn't sit there and watch over the showers in any way.

Never used the shower once ar any school. However, I was only there for PE.

As for the original subject, it’s hard know what one’s motives are. I know some parents/grandparents who are intensely afraid that a child being exposed to LGBT people will somehow increase the chance of that child being LGBT. Even some who don’t want someone LGBT to be a role model.

 

[LongLiveRafiki]

I had a lesbian gym teacher in highschool. We had to change into a uniform (shorts and shirt) for gym, as well as shower during the swimming unit (primarily a large open shower room with multiple shower heads + 2 separate shower stalls without a curtain or door that looked directly into the shower room). Many girls didn't mind showering in front of everyone and those of us who did took turns holding up towels at the shower stalls to give some privacy. The gym teacher stayed in her office when everyone was showering or changing and always announced when she was walking out, usually by saying something like, "Are you all ready? Let's get going." I think if she were to be watching girls change or shower it may have been an issue, but frankly that would probably be an issue no matter the gender or sexual orientation. It's just weird to have anyone staring at you when you're in a state of undress, especially when you're in the awkward teen stage.

Personally, as a bio woman identifying as a woman, I'd be much more comfortable in undressing situations around a man (gay or straight) than I am another woman, but I know I'm in the minority on that. I think most women/girls would probably be more comfortable with a lesbian woman than a man (even if it's a gay man) because of the differences in biology rather than sexual attraction. Lesbian women still have the anatomy of a woman and aren't likely to get uncomfortable with seeing a pad or a tampon the same way a biological man might.

In regards to trans, with the volunteer in question being female to male, while they still assumedly have the same general anatomy of a girl, they are presenting as a guy. That alone may make some uncomfortable (possibly especially if a student doesn't realize they are trans and thinks they are a biological male) IF the volunteer were in the locker room with them while they were undressing. If that volunteer isn't ever in the locker room with them, then I don't see it as an issue.

Basically, if this issue has anything to do with being around girls in a state of undress, there are simple ways to remedy it so that no one is uncomfortable (volunteer not being in the locker room while girls are changing for instance). If the issue is outside of that, then it really isn't anyone's business whether that volunteer is lesbian or trans as it has nothing to do with being a coach.

 

[Moliphino]

Just curious - did anyone ever shower in middle or high school and actually have someone watch them? In my limited personal experience the showers were in the same locker room as an "office" with an adult in it, but the adult didn't sit there and watch over the showers in any way.

We only showered on days we had swimming and that was really just washing our hair with bathing suits still on in the shower room off the pool deck. Nobody ever used the showers in the locker rooms (except to change clothes if one wanted privacy).

 

[ronandannette]

I will, as soon as I know more. I'm one of the adult coaches on the team, and we were supposed to have our pre-season meeting this morning so I expected to get more information then... but we have a snow day today, so the meeting got pushed to Thursday. The complaining parent apparently raised the issue with a teacher last week but hasn't said anything to me or the other coach directly.

Middle school basketball, 6th to 8th grade. So the players are 11 to 13.

I suspect the only reason this has come up at all is that our student volunteer is an alum of the school himself, and he was female-presenting during those years because he was still figuring things out and was afraid of his parents' reaction. He had his first girlfriend during those years but not many people knew about it, especially among the adults. I only knew/know because he's close friends with my DD18. But he's been male-presenting for two years, recently began taking hormones to begin transition, and took his girlfriend to homecoming for the first time this year... and the family I suspect complained has two older children at the same high school he attends. Sometimes small towns are a pain in the rear - everybody knows far too much about everyone else's history and personal life.

It is a parochial school, so it there isn't a legal question - they have the right to discriminate on religious freedom grounds. But we've had one LGBT teacher in the past and administration didn't think it was a disqualifying factor (though I'm not sure how many of the parents knew her orientation; a few at least, since she lived openly and was married to a woman), so the other coach and I didn't expect it to become an issue. Especially since we do all know the volunteer, many of us for most of his life, and he has a reputation as being very kind, helpful, and good with the younger students.

OK - here’s a thought that arises if this is a Catholic school. They generally have terms of employment (agreed to in writing by the employees) that include a declaration that they are practicing Catholics, submit to the Church in matters of doctrine and dogma and are living lives that conform to and model the tenants of the faith. This generally means there are no prominently “out” gay people on staff.

These rules however, do not apply students. It’s possible the complaining people are doing so based on the wrong assumption that the student coach should be held to the same terms of employment as the staff coaches, which I think would be incorrect.

 

[siren0119]

OK - here’s a thought that arises if this is a Catholic school. They generally have terms of employment (agreed to in writing by the employees) that include a declaration that they are practicing Catholics, submit to the Church in matters of doctrine and dogma and are living lives that conform to and model the tenants of the faith. This generally means there are no prominently “out” gay people on staff.

These rules however, do not apply students. It’s possible the complaining people are doing so based on the wrong assumption that the student coach should be held to the same terms of employment as the staff coaches, which I think would be incorrect.

I think the OP mentioned that at this school there had been a woman teaching who was known to be married to a woman, so it sounds like the school itself has set a precedent with their own terms of employment that SHOULD make this whole thing a non-issue.

 

[ronandannette]

I think the OP mentioned that at this school there had been a woman teaching who was known to be married to a woman, so it sounds like the school itself has set a precedent with their own terms of employment that SHOULD make this whole thing a non-issue.

That’s very possible - I’ve know of various exceptions. The point I was making though is about the people who are complaining may be doing so on the basis of an incorrect assumption of the employment rules.

 

[siren0119]

That’s very possible - I’ve know of various exceptions. The point I was making though is about the people who are complaining may be doing so on the basis of an incorrect assumption of the employment rules.

Agreed. There are so many reasons why it shouldn't even be an issue.

 

[mjkacmom]

Just curious - did anyone ever shower in middle or high school and actually have someone watch them? In my limited personal experience the showers were in the same locker room as an "office" with an adult in it, but the adult didn't sit there and watch over the showers in any way.

I don’t recall anyone using the showers, there were 3 stalls in the locker room. My kids played varsity sports, never took a shower.

 

[Colleen27]

Just curious - did anyone ever shower in middle or high school and actually have someone watch them? In my limited personal experience the showers were in the same locker room as an "office" with an adult in it, but the adult didn't sit there and watch over the showers in any way.

I didn't have to take PE - at my HHS, student athletes could get an exemption from the requirement - but that was how our locker rooms were set up too. The gym teacher's/coaches' office opened off of the locker room and had a window between the two spaces, but the "view" was only of the first row of lockers, not the shower room or the other rows.

OK - here’s a thought that arises if this is a Catholic school. They generally have terms of employment (agreed to in writing by the employees) that include a declaration that they are practicing Catholics, submit to the Church in matters of doctrine and dogma and are living lives that conform to and model the tenants of the faith. This generally means there are no prominently “out” gay people on staff.

These rules however, do not apply students. It’s possible the complaining people are doing so based on the wrong assumption that the student coach should be held to the same terms of employment as the staff coaches, which I think would be incorrect.

It is a Catholic school, but we don't require our staff to be practicing Catholics even when they're direct-hire and we contract a lot of services (food service, busing, "specials" teachers, special ed) from our local public district, so for those positions it is the public school rules that apply which brings in even more diversity. Our parish is a pretty accepting one, as Catholic churches go, and the kids are all very familiar with a community/parish member and frequent school volunteer who is openly gay and sometimes attends mass with his partner - in fact, he knows most of them by name when they go into his business (the neighborhood ice cream shop)

I did get a short update this morning when I went in to update my background check info. Apparently the complaint did come from the family I suspected, and it did have to do with things their older kids (who go to the same public high school as my volunteer) had relayed. But when they spoke with a teacher and the principal, they framed their concerns about it being "confusing" for the kids because most of them knew this volunteer as female before he came out. Fortunately, the principal doesn't seem inclined to let that concern get in the way of the season - she said she offered the family advice on how to guide their children in navigating any confusion, and pointed out that our mission statement first and foremost stresses a spirit of love and service to one another. Which had me breathing a big sigh of relief, because when my co-coach and I first heard that a parent had complained about our volunteer there was a moment of "*** did I get myself into this time?!" going through my head.

 

[Searc]

I did get a short update this morning when I went in to update my background check info. Apparently the complaint did come from the family I suspected, and it did have to do with things their older kids (who go to the same public high school as my volunteer) had relayed. But when they spoke with a teacher and the principal, they framed their concerns about it being "confusing" for the kids because most of them knew this volunteer as female before he came out. Fortunately, the principal doesn't seem inclined to let that concern get in the way of the season - she said she offered the family advice on how to guide their children in navigating any confusion, and pointed out that our mission statement first and foremost stresses a spirit of love and service to one another. Which had me breathing a big sigh of relief, because when my co-coach and I first heard that a parent had complained about our volunteer there was a moment of "*** did I get myself into this time?!" going through my head.

As cynical as I am about religion, this is truly wonderful to hear and I hope they stick with it.

 

[luvsJack]

I didn't have to take PE - at my HHS, student athletes could get an exemption from the requirement - but that was how our locker rooms were set up too. The gym teacher's/coaches' office opened off of the locker room and had a window between the two spaces, but the "view" was only of the first row of lockers, not the shower room or the other rows.



It is a Catholic school, but we don't require our staff to be practicing Catholics even when they're direct-hire and we contract a lot of services (food service, busing, "specials" teachers, special ed) from our local public district, so for those positions it is the public school rules that apply which brings in even more diversity. Our parish is a pretty accepting one, as Catholic churches go, and the kids are all very familiar with a community/parish member and frequent school volunteer who is openly gay and sometimes attends mass with his partner - in fact, he knows most of them by name when they go into his business (the neighborhood ice cream shop)

I did get a short update this morning when I went in to update my background check info. Apparently the complaint did come from the family I suspected, and it did have to do with things their older kids (who go to the same public high school as my volunteer) had relayed. But when they spoke with a teacher and the principal, they framed their concerns about it being "confusing" for the kids because most of them knew this volunteer as female before he came out. Fortunately, the principal doesn't seem inclined to let that concern get in the way of the season - she said she offered the family advice on how to guide their children in navigating any confusion, and pointed out that our mission statement first and foremost stresses a spirit of love and service to one another. Which had me breathing a big sigh of relief, because when my co-coach and I first heard that a parent had complained about our volunteer there was a moment of "*** did I get myself into this time?!" going through my head.

Good! I am glad it worked out! Sounds like the principal handled the whole situation wonderfully!

 

[plygph]

Not even worth my time to write this it is a non issue. I we would all just follow one premise to love one another this world would be a better place.

My 2 cents

 

[DisneyOma]

And I assure you, this one is real...

How would you feel about a middle school girls' sport coach being transgender? Or lesbian? (I'm not entirely sure how familiar the complaining parent(s) is with the volunteer, so I'm not sure what the specific complaint is yet). There is, of course, an adult 'coach' present at all times at practices and games, but the team wouldn't even exist without this student volunteer because none of the adults who were able to take on leading the team know enough about the sport to provide any meaningful instruction to a group of girls who have mostly never played before.

I'd feel psyched that someone was evolved enough to hire a transgender person without prejudice.

To the OP, the only POSSIBLE issue I could see is if a lesbian coach had to "oversee" girls showering. And before someone says I'm claiming all lesbians are pedophiles, that's not what I'm saying. I'm sure there would be an issue with a male coach overseeing girls showering also. I don't see a difference between those two (male coach & lesbian coach). As long as the same safeguards that would be in place for a male coach are in place, who cares?

Wow, is this the way people think? Adults are watching kids actually taking showers? I work in a school - the last thing teachers want to see are kids naked. It's an instant kick out the door, don't let it hit you on the way out. No one is "overseeing" the showering, at least not in a normal, healthy, well functioning school.

I suspect the only reason this has come up at all is that our student volunteer is an alum of the school himself, and he was female-presenting during those years because he was still figuring things out and was afraid of his parents' reaction. He had his first girlfriend during those years but not many people knew about it, especially among the adults. I only knew/know because he's close friends with my DD18. But he's been male-presenting for two years, recently began taking hormones to begin transition, and took his girlfriend to homecoming for the first time this year... and the family I suspect complained has two older children at the same high school he attends. Sometimes small towns are a pain in the rear - everybody knows far too much about everyone else's history and personal life.



It is a parochial school, so it there isn't a legal question - they have the right to discriminate on religious freedom grounds. But we've had one LGBT teacher in the past and administration didn't think it was a disqualifying factor (though I'm not sure how many of the parents knew her orientation; a few at least, since she lived openly and was married to a woman), so the other coach and I didn't expect it to become an issue. Especially since we do all know the volunteer, many of us for most of his life, and he has a reputation as being very kind, helpful, and good with the younger students.

Religious freedom grounds? You can't discriminate against someone that way unless you can prove that you follow every. single. other. rule from the bible. Actually, anti-gay stuff isn't even in the bible. So good luck to them.

I totally agree with you. But how many people would be up in arms if a male coach had to "oversee" HS (much less MS) girls showering? Wouldn't the natural argument be "it's not sexual"? Do you think that would satisfy everyone? So why does it if we're talking about a lesbian?

Well, since normal schools don't do this, not sure what your point is?

Totally agree. I just think it's a double standard that many parents would complain if it was a male teacher watching their daughters, but if it's a lesbian, eh, "it's not sexual".

This says a lot. Makes it clear how you feel about LGBTQ.

Just curious - did anyone ever shower in middle or high school and actually have someone watch them? In my limited personal experience the showers were in the same locker room as an "office" with an adult in it, but the adult didn't sit there and watch over the showers in any way.

Exactly! Sam Gordon makes it sound like there are pedophile teachers in every school watching kids take showers.

OK - here’s a thought that arises if this is a Catholic school. They generally have terms of employment (agreed to in writing by the employees) that include a declaration that they are practicing Catholics, submit to the Church in matters of doctrine and dogma and are living lives that conform to and model the tenants of the faith. This generally means there are no prominently “out” gay people on staff.

These rules however, do not apply students. It’s possible the complaining people are doing so based on the wrong assumption that the student coach should be held to the same terms of employment as the staff coaches, which I think would be incorrect.

I hope people start challenging the anti-gay dogma of the Catholic church. There's no basis for it in the bible, so not sure why they got stuck on it. Well, I know some of the reason, but it's too political for the DIS.

 

[luvsJack]

I'd feel psyched that someone was evolved enough to hire a transgender person without prejudice.



Wow, is this the way people think? Adults are watching kids actually taking showers? I work in a school - the last thing teachers want to see are kids naked. It's an instant kick out the door, don't let it hit you on the way out. No one is "overseeing" the showering, at least not in a normal, healthy, well functioning school.



Religious freedom grounds? You can't discriminate against someone that way unless you can prove that you follow every. single. other. rule from the bible. Actually, anti-gay stuff isn't even in the bible. So good luck to them.



Well, since normal schools don't do this, not sure what your point is?



This says a lot. Makes it clear how you feel about LGBTQ.



Exactly! Sam Gordon makes it sound like there are pedophile teachers in every school watching kids take showers.



I hope people start challenging the anti-gay dogma of the Catholic church. There's no basis for it in the bible, so not sure why they got stuck on it. Well, I know some of the reason, but it's too political for the DIS.

Actually it does mention it but it also says it’s not for us to judge and that we should love one another. I figure someone else’s sin is no better or worse than my own so who am I to say what is or isn’t ok in their life and their beliefs.

 

[skyblue17]

Fortunately, the principal doesn't seem inclined to let that concern get in the way of the season - she said she offered the family advice on how to guide their children in navigating any confusion, and pointed out that our mission statement first and foremost stresses a spirit of love and service to one another.

This is fantastic to hear. Sounds like a great opportunity to explain transitioning to kids, too.

 

[sam_gordon]

This says a lot. Makes it clear how you feel about LGBTQ.

Oh really? OK, so how do I feel about LGBTQ? I'm willing to wager whatever you type is wrong.

Exactly! Sam Gordon makes it sound like there are pedophile teachers in every school watching kids take showers.

You might want to check your reading comprehension. Go back and read my first post, particularly the part you quoted.

 

[Colleen27]

Religious freedom grounds? You can't discriminate against someone that way unless you can prove that you follow every. single. other. rule from the bible. Actually, anti-gay stuff isn't even in the bible. So good luck to them.

I was responding strictly to a previous poster's question about the legality of discriminating based on sexual orientation. Regardless of how you or I feel about the morality or dogmatic basis for that discrimination, the courts have been pretty consistent in upholding the right of expressly religious organizations to legally discriminate against individuals who go against key tenets of the faith. We may see it as hypocritical for a group of imperfect humans to declare their sins acceptable but declare other sins taboo, but *legally*, the church/school has the right to do so (though I'm personally far more comfortable being part of a community that doesn't exercise that right).