9-year-old charged with murder in 5 Illinois fire deaths

[luvsJack]

But the person you quoted was saying not all parents are capable of unconditional love. You’re essentially saying the same thing and so am I. That’s where I’m confused.

My apologies. The conversation started with a different poster questioning a parent’s ability to truly love their child unconditionally.




But maybe the mom doesn’t mean she literally stood there telling them that. I mean, I am picturing her at the window of the burning house and literally saying it to her family. Maybe that’s not what she meant.

 

[SirDuff]

My apologies. The conversation started with a different poster questioning a parent’s ability to truly love their child unconditionally.




But maybe the mom doesn’t mean she literally stood there telling them that. I mean, I am picturing her at the window of the burning house and literally saying it to her family. Maybe that’s not what she meant.

She does specifcially something about "and I hope they heard me", so I had the same picture (but, again, maybe she didn't meant that literally either).

 

[luvsJack]

We had something similar here 11 years ago. A mentally ill man murdered a passenger on a Greyhound bus. I won’t go into all the details but it was horrific and gory. The suspect was declared mentally incompetent and was put in a treatment facility. He is now medicated and has been released. He changed his name and he lives in the city. It’s still a VERY hot topic here.

I do agree that part of the problem is a lack of resources. Waiting lists for psychologists and psychiatrists are six and seven months. The same goes for places that offer counselling on a sliding pay schedule.

Not sure how it is in Illinois but here we have access to free or sliding scale mental health professionals. The wait isn’t as long as one would think but it takes keeping at it and jumping through the hoops.

The get an appointment, usually 2-3 months out. The first is for intake. Just a question and answer thing to decide the best course of action. Then they see a psychologist and he/she decides if they need to see the psychiatrist for medication. Then they set up hour therapy sessions, group therapy sessions, appointments with the psychiatrists and whatever else they need to do. Problem for many is that it’s all week days, day time hours only and no holidays (state office so they have all holidays off). Adults with jobs or kids in school can’t do all this so a lot just give up.

 

[luvsJack]

She does specifcially something about "and I hope they heard me", so I had the same picture (but, again, maybe she didn't meant that literally either).

She did. So I was imagining that picture and chills just went all over me. No way, no how could I have done that.

But your right, maybe it’s like when one says a prayer when a loved one is dying and says “I hope they heard me”.

 

[ronandannette]

We had something similar here 11 years ago. A mentally ill man murdered a passenger on a Greyhound bus. I won’t go into all the details but it was horrific and gory. The suspect was declared mentally incompetent and was put in a treatment facility. He is now medicated and has been released. He changed his name and he lives in the city. It’s still a VERY hot topic here.

I do agree that part of the problem is a lack of resources. Waiting lists for psychologists and psychiatrists are six and seven months. The same goes for places that offer counselling on a sliding pay schedule.

I thought about mentioning the Vince Li case as well but it's so shocking it seems more like the plot of a cheesy movie. It's almost unreal that a handful of meds is all that stands between these men and them committing more unspeakable crimes. Meds that they can simply choose to or neglect to take once they have been released.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

On the mom I believe she loves her son. What I'm iffy on is the rest of her emotions. Everyone deals with grief differently so I may be completely reading the situation wrong and honestly maybe in the time since it's happened she's come to terms with it all but something IDK something just doesn't feel 'right' IYKWIM in her interview.

Have they ever said how the fire was started? The mom calls it a mistake. I'm not so sure I would call it that depending on how the fire was started. Obviously mental illness plays such a huge roll but for the sake of what my mind is conjuring up the first could have still been intentional even if say his schizophrenia was causing him to do it. Mistake to me would be like you left a candle burning and it caught something on fire, etc. Or people who have left something cooking on the stove and forgot it. Maybe the mom means mistake in that people died?

In terms of the situation and the consequences and how you go about implementing those consequences I think it would need to be determined if the mental illness directly impacted what happened even if that seems like a given. Mental illness impacts individuals differently. Has it been determined that the events that led up to the fire were a result of an episode/thoughts, etc of either his ADHD, Bipolar or Schizophrenia? Was it too early on in the diagnosis to have had medication or medication that was working? That could impact the outcome. I know for my friend that was diagnosed with schizophrenia and bipolar at age 18/19 she was in and out of inpatient facilities for months and even after getting the right dosage of medication (I believe one of them was lithium) took a long while.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

That is the one thing she says that makes me question this woman. Most mothers would have died continuing to try and save their child. How many times have firefighters had to restrain a parent from going back into a burning building.

Was she home when the fire started? If she was, how did she get out and everyone else trapped?

I've thought of that too.

One thing I will say in perhaps a slight defense of the mother. It looks like it was a mobile home or manufactured home. Those things can go up in a blaze so fast and with little firewall protections it's possible she couldn't get to them quickly enough. However, I also wondered where she was when the fire started. In a place that small it's likely they slept fairly close to each other so if she got out but no one else that amps up my warning bells.

 

[luvsJack]

I've thought of that too.

One thing I will say in perhaps a slight defense of the mother. It looks like it was a mobile home or manufactured home. Those things can go up in a blaze so fast and with little firewall protections it's possible she couldn't get to them quickly enough. However, I also wondered where she was when the fire started. In a place that small it's likely they slept fairly close to each other so if she got out but no one else that amps up my warning bells.

Yeah it does look like a mobile home. The fireman told us when our doublewide caught fire that it takes a mobile home 12 minutes to burn to the ground from the onset of a fire

Now being the mobile home isn’t burnt to the ground, the fire department must have gotten there pretty quick. So it is possible that she was rescued and they tried to get the others and could not, I guess. There aren’t a lot of details in the article or the interview about the fire itself.

 

[PaulaSB12]

Sorry IM (professional)O there are no schizophrenic children. I’m not saying he doesn’t have some mental health issues, but that’s a ridiculous diagnosis for a 9 yr old.

How can you say there are no schizophrenic kids? I just looked and found this from Children's hospital of Philladelphia

"
Childhood schizophrenia, also known as very early-onset schizophrenia, is a rare and severe form of the mental disorder.
The condition is defined as schizophrenia that starts in children younger than 13 years of age (and usually older than 7). Apart from age of onset and severity, it is much the same as adult schizophrenia.
This article will focus on the symptoms, diagnosis, and treatment of childhood schizophrenia. To learn more about schizophrenia in general, including the possible causes of schizophrenia, please visit the Medical News Today page on schizophrenia."

https://www.chop.edu/conditions-diseases/schizophrenia-children

 

[DLgal]

How can you say there are no schizophrenic kids? I just looked and found this from Children's hospital of Philladelphia

"
Childhood schizophrenia, also known as very early-onset schizophrenia, is a rare and severe form of the mental disorder.
The condition is defined as schizophrenia that starts in children younger than 13 years of age (and usually older than 7). Apart from age of onset and severity, it is much the same as adult schizophrenia.
This article will focus on the symptoms, diagnosis, and treatment of childhood schizophrenia. To learn more about schizophrenia in general, including the possible causes of schizophrenia, please visit the Medical News Today page on schizophrenia."

https://www.chop.edu/conditions-diseases/schizophrenia-children

Exactly. It is real. Just because some professionals don't "agree" that children can actually have schizophrenia, that doesn't mean they are right. I saw a statistic yesterday that said 1 in 40,000 children has early onset schizophrenia. Rare, sure, but not THAT rare. It's not like it's 1 in a million.

My uncle has an autoimmune condition that is so rare, when he was diagnosed about 6 years ago, there had only been 38 known cases worldwide. THAT is what I consider super rare.

 

[kaytieeldr]

I saw a statistic yesterday that said 1 in 40,000 children has early onset schizophrenia. Rare, sure, but not THAT rare. It's not like it's 1 in a million.

Still, that's about 1,852 children overall in the US. About 37 per state. Not as rare as that autoimmune disease, but not nearly what would be considered common.

 

[Drasticq]

I see no reason why children cannot experience psychosis. I guess, though, that this one is best left to practicing psychiatrists.

 

[Imzadi]

The mothers reaction, or lack of reaction, makes me wonder about a genetic component to all of this.

On the mom I believe she loves her son. What I'm iffy on is the rest of her emotions. Everyone deals with grief differently so I may be completely reading the situation wrong and honestly maybe in the time since it's happened she's come to terms with it all but something IDK something just doesn't feel 'right' IYKWIM in her interview.

Schizophrenia can be hereditary. So, there is a possibility the mother may have it too. For males, it does manifest young. But, usually in their teens.

It's almost unreal that a handful of meds is all that stands between these men and them committing more unspeakable crimes. Meds that they can simply choose to or neglect to take once they have been released.

I know someone who is diagnosed schizophrenic. Unfortunately, one of the symptoms of schizophrenia, especially paranoid schizophrenia, is that they don't believe they don't have any problem. They think the problem is everyone else telling them they are ill. So, that makes many of them go off their meds or not want to take them in the first place.

 

[Drasticq]

Schizophrenia and associated psychotic illnesses are terrifying. The afflicted can (but don't always) hear voices, see things, feel things, experience intrusive thoughts (sent by lasers, telepathy, beams and so on), become paranoid, have delusions (often of grandeur), are predisposed to mood disorder such as major depression or bipolar disorder, tend to regress from the world around them, feel suicidal and more.

I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemies.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Schizophrenia can be hereditary. So, there is a possibility the mother may have it too. For males, it does manifest young. But, usually in their teens.

Yup it can be. I don't know that she necessarily has a mental illness but I can't quite put my finger on it. Something just felt off when she was discussing it. Also it wouldn't necessarily be schizophrenia. Mental illness in general can 'run in the family' but it's not necessarily always the reason for people's behaviors and emotions that seem off.

 

[Imzadi]

However, I also wondered where she was when the fire started. In a place that small it's likely they slept fairly close to each other so if she got out but no one else that amps up my warning bells.

There was 7 of them living in that mobile home. Are they big enough for all 7 to sleep in the same area? Maybe she slept in the living area on a convertible couch/bed? The fire could have separated her from getting to them.

Since the son allegedly set the fire to kill the rest of the family, (he's charged with murder, not manslaughter,) he might have set it in such a way that she could escape. Or he might have woken her up, so she could get out. His 9 yr old brain might have thought he'd need his mom to live with. But, he didn't need/want the others? That could be why she says it was a mistake. He woke her up so she could get out. So she'd like to think he would have lwanted the others to get out too, but they couldn't. Just speculating. We don't have any facts yet, how it went down.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I know someone who is diagnosed schizophrenic. Unfortunately, one of the symptoms of schizophrenia, especially paranoid schizophrenia, is that they don't believe they don't have any problem. They think the problem is everyone else telling them they are ill. So, that makes many of them go off their meds or not want to take them in the first place.

One of the big things we talked about in my psychology classes in college (especially my abnormal pyschology) was medication side effects.

In other words it's not always because their illness makes them believe others don't know what they are talking about essentially. Medication side effects, in general not just about mental illness, can have a big component on our willingness to take them.

 

[Forevermarypoppins]

Yes, there are schizophrenic children. Incredible sad.
Look up the story of January "Jani" Schofield. Her younger brother was also diagnosed with schizophrenia.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

There was 7 of them living in that mobile home. Are they big enough for all 7 to sleep in the same area? Maybe she slept in the living area on a convertible couch/bed? The fire could have separated her from getting to them.

Since the son allegedly set the fire to kill the rest of the family, (he's charged with murder, not manslaughter,) he might have set it in such a way that she could escape. Or he might have woken her up, so she could get out. His 9 yr old brain might have thought he'd need his mom to live with. But, he didn't need/want the others? That could be why she says it was a mistake. He woke her up so she could get out. So she'd like to think he would have lwanted the others to get out too, but they couldn't. Just speculating. We don't have any facts yet, how it went down.

When I said they slept fairly close to each other I was meaning because the size and likely layout of their home. There's not a whole lot of room around them. If you take out the component of how quickly the type of home can burn up and just consider that getting to each other would have been for the most part rather easy in comparison to how many people's homes are set up.

But it's entirely possible whereever the fire was it was too out of control too quickly. I guess my thoughtprocess was was she home at the time because if she was she would have likely been sleeping next to her bf (though you're right she may not have been) and likely really close to her 2 toddlers/babies. If she wasn't home it would make more sense that she wasn't able to grab them if the fire blocked her access to get inside. Of course though my mind was just going through assumptions on my part.

That's a good point about the child setting it in a way that she could escape. I guess I was just thinking how 'normal' most of us tend to sleep and the size of the home but def. possible thing to think about is how sophisticated was he in setting the fire. I did wonder how the child felt towards his other family members and if that played any sort of role. Like you though just kinda talking out loud.

 

[Imzadi]

Yup it can be. I don't know that she necessarily has a mental illness but I can't quite put my finger on it. Something just felt off when she was discussing it. Also it wouldn't necessarily be schizophrenia. Mental illness in general can 'run in the family' but it's not necessarily always the reason for people's behaviors and emotions that seem off.

She could also have survivor's guilt. 5 of her family members died in front of her. She heard them screaming. She's just been told her son is being charged with murder. And CPS has been involved 13 times. So, it's not like the son's a big surprise. Yet, she couldn't stop any of it. She may have emotionally shut down as it all is just too much for her. She's living it as though she's watching a movie. That it's kind of happening to someone else? She probably has PTSD. Again, just speculating.