State of Fast Pass Return (or replacement)

[TinkerBelle_325]

So here is an interesting exercise for those of you claiming that Disney has been pricing out the middle class for the past few years.

I was curious, so I looked at median income and ticket pricing over the years.

In the 70s,
A Ticket $0.10 ($0.67 today)
B Ticket $0.25 ($1.68 today)
C Ticket $0.50 ($3.35 today)
D Ticket $0.75 ($5.00 today)
E Ticket $0.80-0.90 ($5.25 - 6.00)
7 ride ticket book $4.50/4.00/3.50 ($30/27/24) so approx $3-4 per ride in today’s money when there was only a single park and a small pool of rides (much like Shanghai Disney now)

Here is the median household income and the average cost for a family of 4 (2 adults, one teen, one child) to spend 1 day in a Disney theme park in 1971, 1981, 1991, 2001, 2011 and 2021. The income information is from the US Census Bureau and the ticket prices are from AllEars historical ticket pricing page. All tickets are base (for 1971 and 1981 this is general admission + lowest price ticket book, for 1991 and beyond it is a 1 day ticket with no add ons like park hopping etc)

1971
Median income = $9000
1 day for family of 4 = $27
That is approx 0.3% of the median household income

1981
Median income = $22,000
1 day for family of 4 = $61
That is approx 0.27% of the median household income

1991
Median income = $30,000
1 day for family of 4 = $119
That is approx 0.4% of the median household income. First major jump, but WDW now has 3 parks at this point.

2001
Median income = $42,000
1 day for family of 4 = $182
That is approx 0.43% of the median household income. Even though there are now 4 parks, we don’t see a large jump

2011
Median income = $50,000
1 day for a family of 4 = $320
That is approx 0.64% of the median household income. Between 2001 and this point, Magic Your Way tickets were introduced.

2021
Median income = $79,000
1 day for a family of 4 = $458
That is approx 0.57% of the median household income. This is the first decrease we’ve seen in percentage of income since 1982.

So in the 70s and 80s a single day at Disney (a one or two park property) was about 0.3% of annual income for the average family.

In the 90s and early 00s, that increased to about 0.4%. The 10s were the most expensive time to visit as far as % of household income and the 20s see our first decrease.

Just some food for thought when we say that Disney is getting totally out of line. The property has grown over the course of 50 years. The ticket prices have increased and it certainly costs more proportionately to go now than it did in 1971, but WDW then and WDW now aren’t an apples to apples comparison.

 

[Obi-J Kenobi]

So here is an interesting exercise for those of you claiming that Disney has been pricing out the middle class for the past few years.

When I signed up for DIS boards, I was told there would be no math.

 

[AnnabelleTheTalkingTree]

I was so sure we'd have heard some news on this by now!

 

[luv2cheer92]

I think it’s ready to go but they’re holding it for the 50th anniversary.

I hope they either do it soon, or wait until after my trip on the 50th haha. I feel like they have a lot of other stuff to worry about for the 50th that they wouldn't want a brand new system starting then.
I'd be all for FP+ to return though.
I don't think its full ready to go either. From what it sounds like, some systems have passed the tests, but not everything.

 

[TinkerBelle_325]

When I signed up for DIS boards, I was told there would be no math.

Shows how bored I am waiting for any news on potential FastPasses lol

 

[Launchpad_Mcquack]

So here is an interesting exercise for those of you claiming that Disney has been pricing out the middle class for the past few years.

I was curious, so I looked at median income and ticket pricing over the years.

In the 70s,
A Ticket $0.10 ($0.67 today)
B Ticket $0.25 ($1.68 today)
C Ticket $0.50 ($3.35 today)
D Ticket $0.75 ($5.00 today)
E Ticket $0.80-0.90 ($5.25 - 6.00)
7 ride ticket book $4.50/4.00/3.50 ($30/27/24) so approx $3-4 per ride in today’s money when there was only a single park and a small pool of rides (much like Shanghai Disney now)

Here is the median household income and the average cost for a family of 4 (2 adults, one teen, one child) to spend 1 day in a Disney theme park in 1971, 1981, 1991, 2001, 2011 and 2021. The income information is from the US Census Bureau and the ticket prices are from AllEars historical ticket pricing page. All tickets are base (for 1971 and 1981 this is general admission + lowest price ticket book, for 1991 and beyond it is a 1 day ticket with no add ons like park hopping etc)

1971
Median income = $9000
1 day for family of 4 = $27
That is approx 0.3% of the median household income

1981
Median income = $22,000
1 day for family of 4 = $61
That is approx 0.27% of the median household income

1991
Median income = $30,000
1 day for family of 4 = $119
That is approx 0.4% of the median household income. First major jump, but WDW now has 3 parks at this point.

2001
Median income = $42,000
1 day for family of 4 = $182
That is approx 0.43% of the median household income. Even though there are now 4 parks, we don’t see a large jump

2011
Median income = $50,000
1 day for a family of 4 = $320
That is approx 0.64% of the median household income. Between 2001 and this point, Magic Your Way tickets were introduced.

2021
Median income = $79,000
1 day for a family of 4 = $458
That is approx 0.57% of the median household income. This is the first decrease we’ve seen in percentage of income since 1982.

So in the 70s and 80s a single day at Disney (a one or two park property) was about 0.3% of annual income for the average family.

In the 90s and early 00s, that increased to about 0.4%. The 10s were the most expensive time to visit as far as % of household income and the 20s see our first decrease.

Just some food for thought when we say that Disney is getting totally out of line. The property has grown over the course of 50 years. The ticket prices have increased and it certainly costs more proportionately to go now than it did in 1971, but WDW then and WDW now aren’t an apples to apples comparison.

Well that is quite a bit of spin. Two glaring contextual flaws I see in your argument. For one, I live in the midwest. Anecdotally, I don't know a single person around me who makes $80,000. The Median income is highly skewed by areas of the country flush with money like NYC, LA, San Fran, Miami, Austin, etc.

"In simple terms, if Warren Buffet walks into a room in which there are 80 guys who are dead broke, the moment he’s there, they’re all billionaires, on average. Because Buffett is worth over $81 billion, and 81 guys divided by any number over 81 billion means that on average, they’re all worth over $1 billion."

"The top 5% of US households earn as much as the bottom 60% combined. The top earners skew the mean, or simple average income number, much higher than the amount the median, or exact middle-of-the-pack household earns"

"And what we find is that for all the purported progress and recovery and great stock market and all the rest, the real household median income, below which half of all US households fall, is around $45,000 and about half the mean income of almost $90,000"

Secondly, you conveniently choose to use ticket prices as your only metric. Everyone here knows Disney is not in the business of making profits at the turnstyle, it's the $4 water, the $20 hamburger, the $75 t-shirt, the parking, the resort fees, and soon the $15 per person fast pass. They make it on food and merch not unlike a Movie theatre. Speaking of which I bet you could create the same metric for theatre ticket prices over the years, but you will have failed to mention how expensive the popcorn and soda are. Theatres make next to nothing on the actual ticket prices same as disney.

You have cherry picked a very specific metric to suit your argument.

 

[jhglassman]

Of course. I've never had any illusions as to why they would want their guests to be satisfied. It's not because they love us, they just love our money. The issue is, they've discovered that at least in the short term, they can get those profits with little regard for guest satisfaction.

the irony is that short term thinking is partially a result of the lack of job security for upper management. The more Chapek hears people calling for his head, the more he has incentive to mortgage the future for the present. (I have no solution to this problem, btw, and I am not suggesting that anyone pretend to like Chapek or some silliness. Just think it’s interesting.)

 

[Farro]

Well that is quite a bit of spin. Two glaring contextual flaws I see in your argument. For one, I live in the midwest. Anecdotally, I don't know a single person around me who makes $80,000. The Median income is highly skewed by areas of the country flush with money like NYC, LA, San Fran, Miami, Austin, etc.

"In simple terms, if Warren Buffet walks into a room in which there are 80 guys who are dead broke, the moment he’s there, they’re all billionaires, on average. Because Buffett is worth over $81 billion, and 81 guys divided by any number over 81 billion means that on average, they’re all worth over $1 billion."

Secondly, you conveniently choose to use ticket prices as your only metric. Everyone here knows Disney is not in the business of making profits at the turnstyle, it's the $4 water, the $20 hamburger, the $75 t-shirt, the parking, the resort fees, and soon the $15 per person fast pass. They make it on food and merch not unlike a Movie theatre. Speaking of which I bet you could create the same metric for theatre ticket prices over the years, but you will have failed to mention how expensive the popcorn and soda are. Theatres make next to nothing on the actual ticket prices same as disney.

You have cherry picked a very specific metric to suit your argument.

I mean, technically I also live in the Midwest and I know quite a families who make at least $79,000 a year combined. And they are not flushed with money!

It's all relative.

 

[Launchpad_Mcquack]

I mean, technically I also live in the Midwest and I know quite a families who make at least $79,000 a year combined. And they are not flushed with money!

It's all relative.

But it's not, it is statistical fact that the true median is about $45,000 as was stated.

 

[SuzErwin]

Such a shame.

It's just mid boggling to me how people will just toss money at disney, instead of holding disney accountable for their actions.

“Holding Disney accountable fo their actions”?!

I’m sorry, did the entire Walt Disney Company come to your house to kick your dog and punch your sister?

Poeple can spend their money however they choose. If they choose to spend it at a theme park, that's their prerogative.

Well that is quite a bit of spin. Two glaring contextual flaws I see in your argument. For one, I live in the midwest. Anecdotally, I don't know a single person around me who makes $80,000. The Median income is highly skewed by areas of the country flush with money like NYC, LA, San Fran, Miami, Austin, etc.

"In simple terms, if Warren Buffet walks into a room in which there are 80 guys who are dead broke, the moment he’s there, they’re all billionaires, on average. Because Buffett is worth over $81 billion, and 81 guys divided by any number over 81 billion means that on average, they’re all worth over $1 billion."

"The top 5% of US households earn as much as the bottom 60% combined. The top earners skew the mean, or simple average income number, much higher than the amount the median, or exact middle-of-the-pack household earns"

"And what we find is that for all the purported progress and recovery and great stock market and all the rest, the real household median income, below which half of all US households fall, is around $45,000 and about half the mean income of almost $90,000"

Secondly, you conveniently choose to use ticket prices as your only metric. Everyone here knows Disney is not in the business of making profits at the turnstyle, it's the $4 water, the $20 hamburger, the $75 t-shirt, the parking, the resort fees, and soon the $15 per person fast pass. They make it on food and merch not unlike a Movie theatre. Speaking of which I bet you could create the same metric for theatre ticket prices over the years, but you will have failed to mention how expensive the popcorn and soda are. Theatres make next to nothing on the actual ticket prices same as disney.

You have cherry picked a very specific metric to suit your argument.

You do not have to buy refreshments at either a theme park or a movie theater.

You do have to pay admission to ride rides and to see a film.

The comparison is apt.

 

[Loro]

But it's not, it is statistical fact that the true median is about $45,000 as was stated.

Median is definitely a better number to use, but broken down locally can be drastically different

Your point about food/souvenir prices is on as well. Not to mention that hotel prices have skyrocketed in the last 15 years or so.

Families also have far more and higher expenses than they used to. Housing prices have far outpaced inflation, insurance costs are up, people need to have cell phones and internet now, child care costs are astronomical in the current time of 2 income households. Those are just a few examples. There's a reason that debt is a huge issue in this country.

Ticket prices only show a part of the story

 

[Loro]

Delete

 

[ChipnDale79]

So here is an interesting exercise for those of you claiming that Disney has been pricing out the middle class for the past few years.

I was curious, so I looked at median income and ticket pricing over the years.

In the 70s,
A Ticket $0.10 ($0.67 today)
B Ticket $0.25 ($1.68 today)
C Ticket $0.50 ($3.35 today)
D Ticket $0.75 ($5.00 today)
E Ticket $0.80-0.90 ($5.25 - 6.00)
7 ride ticket book $4.50/4.00/3.50 ($30/27/24) so approx $3-4 per ride in today’s money when there was only a single park and a small pool of rides (much like Shanghai Disney now)

Here is the median household income and the average cost for a family of 4 (2 adults, one teen, one child) to spend 1 day in a Disney theme park in 1971, 1981, 1991, 2001, 2011 and 2021. The income information is from the US Census Bureau and the ticket prices are from AllEars historical ticket pricing page. All tickets are base (for 1971 and 1981 this is general admission + lowest price ticket book, for 1991 and beyond it is a 1 day ticket with no add ons like park hopping etc)

1971
Median income = $9000
1 day for family of 4 = $27
That is approx 0.3% of the median household income

1981
Median income = $22,000
1 day for family of 4 = $61
That is approx 0.27% of the median household income

1991
Median income = $30,000
1 day for family of 4 = $119
That is approx 0.4% of the median household income. First major jump, but WDW now has 3 parks at this point.

2001
Median income = $42,000
1 day for family of 4 = $182
That is approx 0.43% of the median household income. Even though there are now 4 parks, we don’t see a large jump

2011
Median income = $50,000
1 day for a family of 4 = $320
That is approx 0.64% of the median household income. Between 2001 and this point, Magic Your Way tickets were introduced.

2021
Median income = $79,000
1 day for a family of 4 = $458
That is approx 0.57% of the median household income. This is the first decrease we’ve seen in percentage of income since 1982.

So in the 70s and 80s a single day at Disney (a one or two park property) was about 0.3% of annual income for the average family.

In the 90s and early 00s, that increased to about 0.4%. The 10s were the most expensive time to visit as far as % of household income and the 20s see our first decrease.

Just some food for thought when we say that Disney is getting totally out of line. The property has grown over the course of 50 years. The ticket prices have increased and it certainly costs more proportionately to go now than it did in 1971, but WDW then and WDW now aren’t an apples to apples comparison.

There are so many variables to this, its really not as simple as comparing it to median income. I'm no economic expert, and this could lead us into some very political conversations.....

 

[ChipnDale79]

“Holding Disney accountable fo their actions”?!

I’m sorry, did the entire Walt Disney Company come to your house to kick your dog and punch your sister?

Poeple can spend their money however they choose. If they choose to spend it at a theme park, that's their prerogative.

I can hold them accountable by no longer giving them my money.

 

[Launchpad_Mcquack]

The comparison is apt.

Is the comparison apt when it literally hinges on the broken and inaccurate metric of Median Income?

Quick example, and this can be applied across all jobs/classes, if you are a dishwasher at a restaurant in San Francisco you are making $15-$20 an hour. If you are dishwasher at a restaurant in Virginia you are making $8 an hour. The INCOME of the dishwasher in SanFran is valid until you realize their rent and living expenses is 3x's the cost of dishwasher from Virginia(hence the reason they are getting paid more). Their ACTUAL take home profit after paying for essentials is going to end up the same(which is close to nothing).

Median Income does not take any of that into consideration and so in areas where living expenses are very high(NYC, San Fran, Miami, Austin, etc), the income is highly inflated. A better metric would be actual money at the end of the day in peoples bank accounts.

This blows up her entire point that ticket prices have maintained parity. Ask her to remove the debunked $79,000 median income and change it to the more accurate $45,000 median income and see how ticket prices have held up.

 

[TinkerBelle_325]

I mean, technically I also live in the Midwest and I know quite a families who make at least $79,000 a year combined. And they are not flushed with money!

It's all relative.

And that’s why I used median HOUSEHOLD income….so if the family makes $79,000 per year that’s in line with the statistic.

 

[POOH&PIGLET]

The Median income is highly skewed by areas of the country flush with money like NYC, LA, San Fran, Miami, Austin, etc.

I live in NYC and I am not flush with money. NYC is a pretty expensive place to live.

 

[TinkerBelle_325]

I live in NYC and I am not flush with money. NYC is a pretty expensive place to live.

And I live in Toronto. I’m not flush with money either lol. The average house price is over $1 million. Even with a higher average income, cost of living is equally eye-watering.

 

[rangerxenos]

I can hold them accountable by no longer giving them my money.

If you don't like the way a company does business, stop giving them your money. That's your strongest tool as an individual.

If enough people do that, things change, or the company ultimately goes out of business.

 

[Launchpad_Mcquack]

I live in NYC and I am not flush with money. NYC is a pretty expensive place to live.

EXACTLY. You probably make a decent amount of money each year, and that is ALL Median Income is going to see. But what do you actually have to work with after you pay for rent/food/utilities? Median Income doesn't care and just assumes you kept that initial number the same as if you were living in rural Iowa. That's why it's broken and thats why people cherry pick it to try and make their points.