Class-Action Lawsuit against Disney Parks filed - CORRECTION: not class-action

[Gracie09]

Misread previous post and it won't let me edit

 

[SueM in MN]

Misread previous post and it won't let me edit

i will edit it for you.

 

[Laz]

It should be the disabled person and one other or two that is allowed on the DAS card, the rest should have to stay in line and wait...... Your family or group is not disabled . I have a nephew who is D. S. and we take turns with him in lines ,so yes I do know how it is . But he also is learning that the world is not perfect and you do not get it your way all the time. I am so proud of him because he is growing into a young intelligent man.

I escorted a high school student in a wheel chair along with 5 other fellow students to DL. School rules require the group to stay together. So am I and my group just out of luck?

 

[Jedana]

We had the GAC last summer at DL and it was not front of the line access. My daughter ended up having a meltdown anyway because the people mover had been removed. We took her back to the hotel for the rest of the day so she learns she cannot just have a tantrum. It happens no matter how hard anyone tries and it would never cross my mind to sue anyone.

I thought the PeopleMover in DL was shut down in 1995. Did you mean she had a meltdown because a ride that hasn't been opened for 20 years was removed?

 

[Laz]

You had equal opportunity to ride the ride, it's just that your opportunity took longer. Legally, that's all Disney has to provide.

Even if it wanted to, Disney can't give someone in a wheelchair more than that because it takes longer to load and unload or get between attractions. If they opened that Pandora's Box, how is the time factor different for you than someone who chooses to walk slow. (Besides the disability, which Disney isn't legally allowed to ask about).

So how is this different than the autistic person who can not spend the same amount of time in the park as others? If you special need prevents you from moving quickly through the park or not spend a certain amount of time in the park, it all ends up being that certain groups are not getting the same experience for the price. So should the price of park entrance be adjusted based on what you can do or not do in the park? Does this solve the situation as it relates to ADA? If so, a logistical nightmare awaits any theme park.

 

[DisneyLover1217]

I don't think the argument that some kids with special needs can only spend 3 hours in the park should be able to do as many rides in that 3 hour period that other families are doing in 8. Sorry but if you know your child can only last 3 hours that isn't Disney's problem, it's yours. If you choose to spend the money to go there knowing your child has those limitations, you have to deal with it. What about all the non-disabled families that get sick an hour after entering the park and have to leave; should they get a GAC the next day so they can make up the time they lost the day before because of illness??? What if after arriving at the parks a close family member dies back home and you have to leave missing your whole vacation??? Stuff happens. We've had trips where one of us got sick and spent the majority of our time in the hotel room. Who knew I could sue Disney for not giving us a magical time. I think those people in that lawsuit need to wake up and realize Disney is not responsible for their happiness or their child's. Everyone is responsible for their own happiness. If the DAS is now not going to make your child or your family happy, then don't go. It's that simple, it really is that simple.

 

[OurBigTrip]

Well, that is one way to handle the situation and that is their choice. Another choice is to take a child to the world's most accommodating amusement park where the accommodations provided do not harm or interfere with any other guests. No parent who favors one approach should be forced to choose the other path. I defy anyone to go volunteer at GKTW for a week and then come back and tell us that those kids shouldn't be or don't deserve to be at WDW.

Bolding added by me.

This statement applies to the DAS, but it certainly did NOT apply to the GAC. All of the unquestioned, immediate access to the FP lines and alternate entrances most certainly DID interfere with the enjoyment of other guests by making them wait longer for every ride.

 

[Disneylvr]

well ya know what? then they shouldn't even be there at all. I have a nephew, non verbal, profoundly autistic and a danger to himself and everyone around him when he has meltdowns. so his parents DO NOT BRING HIM ANYWHERE WHERE THEY CANNOT MITIGATE ONE.

his siblings have never been to Disney,.,or any amusement park because his parents know that it can't be done safely or enjoyably.

if Junior doesn't understand then you wait until he does.. or you don't put him in the situation at all.

going to Disney is NOT a god given right for anyone. let alone being allowed to bully your way to the front just because Junior has a disease.

And this is the mindset I fight against for my own daughter and others who also function on the more severe side of the autism spectrum. Since day 1 of her diagnosis, at the age of 2 (she is now 11), we have continually kept her in the social public. She eats at restaurants, goes to the zoo, shopping, movies etc... Sometimes they are specific events for people with cognitive disabilities (sensory friendly movies for example) but most of the time they aren't. By continued practice and experience she is constantly learning. We do not hide her away from the public and never will. We keep her safe and we keep others safe in the rare instances there is a public meltdown. I believe they are rare because we have socialize her from the get go. A child or adult is never too old to learn given the appropriate support and tools. Start small and work your way up to something as big as a Disney vacation.There are many programs available at little or no costs in most states but don't count on the public school/government to provide it. Seek out to other organizations because they do want to help the individual and their family live better and enjoyable lives.

In the past we used the GAC in WDW. Disney made the accommodations (alternate entrance and stroller as wheelchair) for us once DD's needs were explained. We did not specifically ask for those accommodations, guest relations determined what they could do for us. We are going back in 3 weeks and plan to use FP+ (all reserved times are made!) in combination with use of the DAS for the very first time. In our situation I do expect it to work out fine. What bothers me about the lawsuit is that some of the plaintiffs didn't even try using the DAS. If the DAS doesn't work for your family member then you return to guest relations and explain why. The phrase "special accommodations" is still in their DAS information FAQ online. We are grateful that Disney is making an accommodation (yes a bit disappointed it has changed and we do understand why) but parents and caregivers also have to have some responsibility in making it work by providing the additional support their loved one needs be it a stroller/wheelchair, social stories/videos, an iPad with visual schedule for prediction, chewelry & fidgit toys.. I am naming things specific to my daughter of course. Autism is not a one size fits all disorder. I apologize for getting too off topic and wordy but this is a subject very near and dear to my heart and the quote above really upset me. The answer IMHO is not keeping these kids and their families out of the public and from enjoying family life.

 

[Aristomommy]

I don't think the argument that some kids with special needs can only spend 3 hours in the park should be able to do as many rides in that 3 hour period that other families are doing in 8. Sorry but if you know your child can only last 3 hours that isn't Disney's problem, it's yours. If you choose to spend the money to go there knowing your child has those limitations, you have to deal with it. What about all the non-disabled families that get sick an hour after entering the park and have to leave; should they get a GAC the next day so they can make up the time they lost the day before because of illness??? What if after arriving at the parks a close family member dies back home and you have to leave missing your whole vacation??? Stuff happens. We've had trips where one of us got sick and spent the majority of our time in the hotel room. Who knew I could sue Disney for not giving us a magical time. I think those people in that lawsuit need to wake up and realize Disney is not responsible for their happiness or their child's. Everyone is responsible for their own happiness. If the DAS is now not going to make your child or your family happy, then don't go. It's that simple, it really is that simple.

I am glad that Disney doesn't have this attitude. Their willingness to make WDW magical for all families is why it has become such popular destination for families with medical and other needs. I think the lawsuit is a bit "out there" but the general thought families like mine should just not go, is not the answer either. Disney is constantly fine tuning things because they know that children with disabilities were not the abusers of the old system. They are seeking feedback from families like mine because they know we are not asking for the moon. If my child does 3 rides all day, we consider it a good day. If Disney policies allow us to do it with minimal wait in the morning, it should not bother anyone. We are back to the hotel before many even arrive at the parks.

 

[2tinkerbell]

I am still bothered about this lawsuit. I think it comes down to something called personal responsibility. I have a child with neurological disabilities: executive function disorder, sensory integration disorder, central auditory processing, non-verbal learning disability, limited fine motor skills, legally blind, social skill impairment, but is not diagnosed on the autism spectrum. My DD has right frontal lobe brain damage - she has "invisible" disabilities.

I work everyday to make sure that my DD is successful. I and my DD work all the time to help her fit into society and not be viewed as "disabled". When she was younger, if I didn't set up the environment for success, she would easily meltdown. She is pretty good at knowing what she needs now and tries hard to accommodate herself.

My DD needs to sit up front and center at the ballet. She loves the ballet! Should I sue because the seats are sold out or more expensive than I can afford? Should I demand that the theater make those people in the front move so my DD can sit there? If my DD doesn't sit front and center at the theater, she gets frustrated and could have a meltdown. Do I threaten those around us that my DD could meltdown and get physical when she is removing herself?
NO! I would never put my DD in that situation! I wouldn't put myself in that situation! I have learned to buy Season tickets. My sister buys Season tickets with her friends so we are all sitting together. For the Nutcracker every year, I am up at o'dark thirty in the cold to stand in line to get tickets. The available seats determine when we can see the ballet. Maybe I should say that the theater isn't disability friendly and sue them! Maybe the ADA compliant access isn't individual enough for my DD! The theater hates us - plan and simple

Yes, it would be lovely if I could just even go to the grocery store without having to make 2 lists (one for my DD and one for me) and take 2 hours because we are always having to stop and discuss prices, weigh, compare, etc. But I am teaching a child.

It would be absolutely wonderful if I could take my DD to Disneyland, or WDW and not have to plan, think, re-think, re-plan, make accommodations, make adjustments, worry, etc. I would love to tour without taking the time to sit down and have my DD look at the map, check out her plan, etc. I would love to take her and not have to worry about her getting overwhelmed, frustrated, tired, etc. But, guess what? That is WHAT EVERYONE GOES THROUGH in some form of another. The 4-5 year old gets tired, frustrated, overwhelmed, etc. The 2 year old needs a nap. Everyone gets hungry. Planning a trip is hard, takes time, takes adjustments, one accommodates everyone in their family. This isn't new. Is it Disney's fault that it is this way? None of this is Disney's fault. They provide the Parks, the attractions, and ADA compliant access. It is up to the individuals to decide IF they can go there or not. It is up to the individuals to decide how they tour.

If I lived my Disneyland or WDW, I could see how it would be nice to go over after school and hit 4 headliners and be home by dinner. Or go to Disney and let your child ride the same ride over and over. Who wouldn't like that?? Is that possible for anyone? Is it Disney's fault because it isn't?

I guess I just don't understand how horrible others have it or how difficult it is on others. Flame away!

 

[paisleys]

I am still bothered about this lawsuit. I think it comes down to something called personal responsibility. I have a child with neurological disabilities: executive function disorder, sensory integration disorder, central auditory processing, non-verbal learning disability, limited fine motor skills, legally blind, social skill impairment, but is not diagnosed on the autism spectrum. My DD has right frontal lobe brain damage - she has "invisible" disabilities.

I work everyday to make sure that my DD is successful. I and my DD work all the time to help her fit into society and not be viewed as "disabled". When she was younger, if I didn't set up the environment for success, she would easily meltdown. She is pretty good at knowing what she needs now and tries hard to accommodate herself.

My DD needs to sit up front and center at the ballet. She loves the ballet! Should I sue because the seats are sold out or more expensive than I can afford? Should I demand that the theater make those people in the front move so my DD can sit there? If my DD doesn't sit front and center at the theater, she gets frustrated and could have a meltdown. Do I threaten those around us that my DD could meltdown and get physical when she is removing herself?
NO! I would never put my DD in that situation! I wouldn't put myself in that situation! I have learned to buy Season tickets. My sister buys Season tickets with her friends so we are all sitting together. For the Nutcracker every year, I am up at o'dark thirty in the cold to stand in line to get tickets. The available seats determine when we can see the ballet. Maybe I should say that the theater isn't disability friendly and sue them! Maybe the ADA compliant access isn't individual enough for my DD! The theater hates us - plan and simple

Yes, it would be lovely if I could just even go to the grocery store without having to make 2 lists (one for my DD and one for me) and take 2 hours because we are always having to stop and discuss prices, weigh, compare, etc. But I am teaching a child.

It would be absolutely wonderful if I could take my DD to Disneyland, or WDW and not have to plan, think, re-think, re-plan, make accommodations, make adjustments, worry, etc. I would love to tour without taking the time to sit down and have my DD look at the map, check out her plan, etc. I would love to take her and not have to worry about her getting overwhelmed, frustrated, tired, etc. But, guess what? That is WHAT EVERYONE GOES THROUGH in some form of another. The 4-5 year old gets tired, frustrated, overwhelmed, etc. The 2 year old needs a nap. Everyone gets hungry. Planning a trip is hard, takes time, takes adjustments, one accommodates everyone in their family. This isn't new. Is it Disney's fault that it is this way? None of this is Disney's fault. They provide the Parks, the attractions, and ADA compliant access. It is up to the individuals to decide IF they can go there or not. It is up to the individuals to decide how they tour.

If I lived my Disneyland or WDW, I could see how it would be nice to go over after school and hit 4 headliners and be home by dinner. Or go to Disney and let your child ride the same ride over and over. Who wouldn't like that?? Is that possible for anyone? Is it Disney's fault because it isn't?

I guess I just don't understand how horrible others have it or how difficult it is on others. Flame away!

>Applauds< Great post!

 

[mttmilner]

I am still bothered about this lawsuit. I think it comes down to something called personal responsibility. I have a child with neurological disabilities: executive function disorder, sensory integration disorder, central auditory processing, non-verbal learning disability, limited fine motor skills, legally blind, social skill impairment, but is not diagnosed on the autism spectrum. My DD has right frontal lobe brain damage - she has "invisible" disabilities.

I work everyday to make sure that my DD is successful. I and my DD work all the time to help her fit into society and not be viewed as "disabled". When she was younger, if I didn't set up the environment for success, she would easily meltdown. She is pretty good at knowing what she needs now and tries hard to accommodate herself.

My DD needs to sit up front and center at the ballet. She loves the ballet! Should I sue because the seats are sold out or more expensive than I can afford? Should I demand that the theater make those people in the front move so my DD can sit there? If my DD doesn't sit front and center at the theater, she gets frustrated and could have a meltdown. Do I threaten those around us that my DD could meltdown and get physical when she is removing herself?
NO! I would never put my DD in that situation! I wouldn't put myself in that situation! I have learned to buy Season tickets. My sister buys Season tickets with her friends so we are all sitting together. For the Nutcracker every year, I am up at o'dark thirty in the cold to stand in line to get tickets. The available seats determine when we can see the ballet. Maybe I should say that the theater isn't disability friendly and sue them! Maybe the ADA compliant access isn't individual enough for my DD! The theater hates us - plan and simple

Yes, it would be lovely if I could just even go to the grocery store without having to make 2 lists (one for my DD and one for me) and take 2 hours because we are always having to stop and discuss prices, weigh, compare, etc. But I am teaching a child.

It would be absolutely wonderful if I could take my DD to Disneyland, or WDW and not have to plan, think, re-think, re-plan, make accommodations, make adjustments, worry, etc. I would love to tour without taking the time to sit down and have my DD look at the map, check out her plan, etc. I would love to take her and not have to worry about her getting overwhelmed, frustrated, tired, etc. But, guess what? That is WHAT EVERYONE GOES THROUGH in some form of another. The 4-5 year old gets tired, frustrated, overwhelmed, etc. The 2 year old needs a nap. Everyone gets hungry. Planning a trip is hard, takes time, takes adjustments, one accommodates everyone in their family. This isn't new. Is it Disney's fault that it is this way? None of this is Disney's fault. They provide the Parks, the attractions, and ADA compliant access. It is up to the individuals to decide IF they can go there or not. It is up to the individuals to decide how they tour.

If I lived my Disneyland or WDW, I could see how it would be nice to go over after school and hit 4 headliners and be home by dinner. Or go to Disney and let your child ride the same ride over and over. Who wouldn't like that?? Is that possible for anyone? Is it Disney's fault because it isn't?

I guess I just don't understand how horrible others have it or how difficult it is on others. Flame away!

What a great post. I think that touches just about everything everyone is feeling. Hats off to you sir and a big old slow clap from Texas.

 

[oklamomof4boys]

It should be the disabled person and one other or two that is allowed on the DAS card, the rest should have to stay in line and wait...... Your family or group is not disabled . I have a nephew who is D. S. and we take turns with him in lines ,so yes I do know how it is . But he also is learning that the world is not perfect and you do not get it your way all the time. I am so proud of him because he is growing into a young intelligent man.

We would hate this. We go to Disney to spend time together as a family.

My son has an "invisible" disability. He has a heart disease and can't tolerate heat or son. We have used GAC and DAS and in some ways preferred DAS. Sometimes we felt guilty when the GAC became a FOTL pass. I think there is probably less abuse with the DAS since it isn't FOTL (not that GAC always was). Sometimes we would get accusatory looks from people thinking we were "cheating". My boys are teenagers. When they would use the GAC without my husband or I, they definitely got dirty looks!

 

[OurBigTrip]

What I find interesting is that if you go to the FB page of one of the plaintiffs, you can see pics of her child at Disneyland on April 1st, happy as can be, posing with characters. Which is awesome!

Yet two days later, she's part of a suit that claims her child can't enjoy DL anymore.

It would be sad if it weren't so pathetic.

 

[RoyalPrincess]

Thank you guys for your posts (especially parents with ASD kids)! I was going to post how absolutely asinine this was, but figured I'd get b/c I don't have a kid on ASD and "couldn't possibly understand".

My initial reaction was "what do you do with your kids when you have to wait other places?" Would you also sue your local hair cut place because yeah, you made an appointment but the stylist got stuck with a demanding customer and you had to wait 10 minutes, so you didn't get "front of the line" access? My second thought (and probably the "ruder" of the two) was "if you don't like it, don't go ... Disney is not an essential service, you won't die if you can't get on rides immediately."

Yes, meltdowns do occur at Disney. But how many of those are due to overstimulation in general, not the waiting time for a ride? Even "normal" kids have meltdowns over the wait times, does that mean that those parents should get front of the line access, too? And I'm sure meltdowns occur in non-Disney situations, so how do those parents handle them then?

But my favorite line:
No widespread problem of abuse? So I guess those stories of people hiring themselves out as "tour guides" because they used a wheelchair were completely made up? Same thing with the teenagers that would rent a wheelchair and take turns being pushed around in it because they knew they'd get front of the line access? Hate to break it to these people, but the ones that services are intended for are typically not the ones that abuse them ... it's the people that the services aren't even for that abuse them. Without having some way to "prove" that you're disabled (which asking is against the ADA), Disney can't restrict the service to only the people that "need" it, so they made it unattractive to people that don't need it. Will people still game the system because they think they're getting some great benefit? Yes. But there will be a lot fewer of them once word spreads.

I applaud you for taking my exact thoughts and writing them down! I completely agree with you! They don't get FOTL access out in the real world, why should they at Disney?

 

[RoyalPrincess]

Also, how can they survive in the real world without a DAS?

• On the plane, how do you keep your disabled kid occupied 2-6 hours so that they don't have a major meltdown? Don't have a DAS or FOTL access? No.
• At the grocery store, do you get a DAS or FOTL access to the checkout line? No.
• At security check for the airport, do you get a DAS or FOTL access? No.
• In the car, do you get a DAS or FOTL access while in a traffic jam? No. How about at a red light? Still no.
• At the hair salon, do you get a DAS or FOTL access? No.
• At the resturaunt, do you get a DAS or FOTL access before the other people waiting? No.
• Using a public restroom with a line, do you get a DAS or FOTL access and shove yourself in front of others? Well, I would sure hope not!

I think we should sue all of these places! They OBVIOUSLY are not compliant under ADA laws.

But seriously... how do you even survive in real life? If you don't have a DAS in the real world, then why are you entitled to one at Disney?

Also, if your child gets upset (to the point of a "meltdown") about something so minor as not getting in front of others in line, then Disneyland is really not the place for you... Oh never mind, since I don't have a kid with a disability, "I couldn't possibly understand!!"

 

[aaarcher86]

I am still bothered about this lawsuit. I think it comes down to something called personal responsibility. I have a child with neurological disabilities: executive function disorder, sensory integration disorder, central auditory processing, non-verbal learning disability, limited fine motor skills, legally blind, social skill impairment, but is not diagnosed on the autism spectrum. My DD has right frontal lobe brain damage - she has "invisible" disabilities. I work everyday to make sure that my DD is successful. I and my DD work all the time to help her fit into society and not be viewed as "disabled". When she was younger, if I didn't set up the environment for success, she would easily meltdown. She is pretty good at knowing what she needs now and tries hard to accommodate herself. My DD needs to sit up front and center at the ballet. She loves the ballet! Should I sue because the seats are sold out or more expensive than I can afford? Should I demand that the theater make those people in the front move so my DD can sit there? If my DD doesn't sit front and center at the theater, she gets frustrated and could have a meltdown. Do I threaten those around us that my DD could meltdown and get physical when she is removing herself? NO! I would never put my DD in that situation! I wouldn't put myself in that situation! I have learned to buy Season tickets. My sister buys Season tickets with her friends so we are all sitting together. For the Nutcracker every year, I am up at o'dark thirty in the cold to stand in line to get tickets. The available seats determine when we can see the ballet. Maybe I should say that the theater isn't disability friendly and sue them! Maybe the ADA compliant access isn't individual enough for my DD! The theater hates us - plan and simple Yes, it would be lovely if I could just even go to the grocery store without having to make 2 lists (one for my DD and one for me) and take 2 hours because we are always having to stop and discuss prices, weigh, compare, etc. But I am teaching a child. It would be absolutely wonderful if I could take my DD to Disneyland, or WDW and not have to plan, think, re-think, re-plan, make accommodations, make adjustments, worry, etc. I would love to tour without taking the time to sit down and have my DD look at the map, check out her plan, etc. I would love to take her and not have to worry about her getting overwhelmed, frustrated, tired, etc. But, guess what? That is WHAT EVERYONE GOES THROUGH in some form of another. The 4-5 year old gets tired, frustrated, overwhelmed, etc. The 2 year old needs a nap. Everyone gets hungry. Planning a trip is hard, takes time, takes adjustments, one accommodates everyone in their family. This isn't new. Is it Disney's fault that it is this way? None of this is Disney's fault. They provide the Parks, the attractions, and ADA compliant access. It is up to the individuals to decide IF they can go there or not. It is up to the individuals to decide how they tour. If I lived my Disneyland or WDW, I could see how it would be nice to go over after school and hit 4 headliners and be home by dinner. Or go to Disney and let your child ride the same ride over and over. Who wouldn't like that?? Is that possible for anyone? Is it Disney's fault because it isn't? I guess I just don't understand how horrible others have it or how difficult it is on others. Flame away!

Excellent post.

 

[davedmaine]

I don't think the argument that some kids with special needs can only spend 3 hours in the park should be able to do as many rides in that 3 hour period that other families are doing in 8. Sorry but if you know your child can only last 3 hours that isn't Disney's problem, it's yours. If you choose to spend the money to go there knowing your child has those limitations, you have to deal with it. What about all the non-disabled families that get sick an hour after entering the park and have to leave; should they get a GAC the next day so they can make up the time they lost the day before because of illness??? What if after arriving at the parks a close family member dies back home and you have to leave missing your whole vacation??? Stuff happens. We've had trips where one of us got sick and spent the majority of our time in the hotel room. Who knew I could sue Disney for not giving us a magical time. I think those people in that lawsuit need to wake up and realize Disney is not responsible for their happiness or their child's. Everyone is responsible for their own happiness. If the DAS is now not going to make your child or your family happy, then don't go. It's that simple, it really is that simple.

Nobody is disabled by choice. I guess you think the Make A Wish kids should have to wait in line too. If a special needs kid can only spend 3 hours in the park, why not let him or her ride a bunch of rides? It'll make a big difference to that child and his or her family. The family is making countless sacrifices throughout the year that I cannot even imagine. In the grand scheme of things is it a problem to let them go to the front of the line? Not to me...

 

[StitchesGr8Fan]

Nobody is disabled by choice. I guess you think the Make A Wish kids should have to wait in line too. If a special needs kid can only spend 3 hours in the park, why not let him or her ride a bunch of rides? It'll make a big difference to that child and his or her family. The family is making countless sacrifices throughout the year that I cannot even imagine. In the grand scheme of things is it a problem to let them go to the front of the line? Not to me...

Because there are too many special needs guests in the park to make that feasible. That is part of the reason they did away with the GAC.

 

[JillyBean1899]

Nobody is disabled by choice. I guess you think the Make A Wish kids should have to wait in line too. If a special needs kid can only spend 3 hours in the park, why not let him or her ride a bunch of rides? It'll make a big difference to that child and his or her family. The family is making countless sacrifices throughout the year that I cannot even imagine. In the grand scheme of things is it a problem to let them go to the front of the line? Not to me...

MaW and GKtW are totally different. They are children with documented life threatening/chronic illnesses that already meet medical criteria to be involved in the organization (which WDW can't ask about). And MaW and GKtW type trips are *ONE TIME ONLY*; they don't get the same treatment next trip if they happen to be an AP family that goes 15 times a year. An exception can be made for that. There's a *HUGE* difference between a family that has never been to Disney and has a 7 year old that will die in 3 months and a family that goes to Disney every year and has a child with a condition that causes difficulty but not near-certain death before they're a teenager.

And if you're going to say that someone that can only spend 3 hours in the park should get preferential treatment based on the amount of time they're there ... well, I have to be at work at noon, so I can only spend 3 hours in the park, I should be able to enjoy everything that someone that gets to spend 8 hours in the park can do, right? I mean, it's not *MY* fault my boss wants me to work at noon! See how slippery of a slope that is?