Clearing bus seats for wheelchair/ecv?

[disney david]

thanks to SueM IN MN here the number the main WDW Operator/Information line: (407) 824-2222 ask to speak to a bus transportation supervisor. or if your at a resort bus stop you can use the phone their press 0 then ask to be transferred to a bus transportation supervisor.

 

[I Love Pluto]

We were next in the regular line for the first bus. Rather than move anyone they asked us to wait over there, gesturing to where the ramp for the next bus would be. We did go there.

Then a second bus came, loaded, and completely ignored us. I am assuming the driver just didn't want to bother with the ECV. My adult daughter informed both drivers. They ignored her.

We finally boarded the third bus, driven by a very kind & helpful driver.

I should have gotten the bus numbers, but I did not think of that. Thank you for that tip, disney david. Also - thank you for Transportation's phone number. I do have the exact date & times, so that should help.

Thanks for caring - utterandomness & disney david.

 

[disney david]

We were next in the regular line for the first bus. Rather than move anyone they asked us to wait over there, gesturing to where the ramp for the next bus would be. We did go there.

Then a second bus came, loaded, and completely ignored us. I am assuming the driver just didn't want to bother with the ECV. My adult daughter informed both drivers. They ignored her.

We finally boarded the third bus, driven by a very kind & helpful driver.

I should have gotten the bus numbers, but I did not think of that. Thank you for that tip, disney david. Also - thank you for Transportation's phone number. I do have the exact date & times, so that should help.

Thanks for caring - utterandomness & disney david.

their no excuse why they didn't load you on the first bus and the second bus driver should of loaded you first. if you speak to someone please let them know that third driver being nice and loaded you. the most important info you need to give is the stop this happened and where you was going ie board walk inn or another resort and the time of day and if you remember their names of the drivers.

 

[livndisney]

You can also speak with a transportation manager at each of the 4 main parks. Each park has a transportation booth. If a manager/supervisor is not in the booth, they can have one show up rather quickly.

We have both complimented and brought concerns to them. A supervisor arrived within minutes. They were able to determine the bus driver based on the time and route.

 

[CarolAnnC]

So the reality is a disabled person without an ECV has to vacate a seat if someone with an ECV shows up (and the only seat open when they boarded was the one under the "must" sign). And since they have no visible disability no one "offers" them a seat (because they don't see the disability).


The second pic is a Disney bus.

No, please read the quotes above citing the ADA requirement. The bus driver is required to ask if anyone is able to move, but he is not able to force anyone to move.

GOOD LORD YES! Actually, even if I were sitting in a NON-handicapped seat I would get up and offer it to a handicapped person, older person or mom with baby without needing to be asked. Sheesh - why is it that so many put themselves first instead of asking what it might be like to walk in another's shoes? Is it so difficult to be nice / courteous?

Thank you for the voice of reason!

 

[livndisney]

No, please read the quotes above citing the ADA requirement. The bus driver is required to ask if anyone is able to move, but he is not able to force anyone to move.



Thank you for the voice of reason!

We have been told to move. Once even had to exit the bus(even when it was not our stop) as there were no other seats.

 

[livndisney]

The bus drivers can only ask for those who are non-handicapped to give up the designated handicapped seats. You would not have to give up your seat, of course.



Please see what I stated above. Nobody said the bus drivers have to conduct an inquisition. They merely have to ask for non-handicapped individuals to give up the designated seats for someone who is handicapped.

The law states the driver must ask for those who are able bodied to offer up their seat to the handicapped. Here is a blurb from the U.S. Department of Transportation Federal Accessability page touching on the subject:

11. Category:
Civil Rights & Accessibility
Question:
If a bus is filled to capacity with standing room only, may a driver displace people currently on the bus to create room for a person with a disability?
Answer:
No, if a bus is filled to capacity, a driver is not required to remove other passengers from the bus in order to make room for additional persons with disabilities. However, the driver would still be required to request that persons without disabilities vacate priority seating locations they may be occupying.

Just to clarify. There is a difference between wheelchair/ECV seats and seats for those with disabilities. The tie down spots are for those in wheelchairs/ECVs. The spots near the front of the bus are for those with non-wheelchair/ECV disabilities. The signs above each area explain this:

Wheelchair/ECV use:

Other disabilities, I'm pretty sure this is a Disney bus sign but not 100% positive:

These two posts contradict each other so which is correct? It would seem the sign on WDW bus is not correct according to the DOT. But I have seen other signs on WDW buses that quote DOT regs.

 

[CarolAnnC]

Hmmm, actually Federal Law does require the driver does say something to those able bodied individuals sitting in the handicapped seats so a person with a disability can sit there. If the bus is filled they do not have to ask them to get off, but they are required to ask them to vacate the handicapped seating. It is not always a wheelchair, but as we all know there are handicaps not visible to the eye that require folks to use this seating.

The people do not have to vacate the seating according to the law, but the transit operator can actually make a policy requiring them to do so. I am not sure if Disney has done this or not, though.

Whether the drivers do or do not ask, well that is the employer's (Disney's) issue to deal with. And if they do not deal with it, then the laws are written to ensure that this occurs.

These two posts contradict each other so which is correct? It would seem the sign on WDW bus is not correct according to the DOT. But I have seen other signs on WDW buses that quote DOT regs.

Well, the U.S. Department of Transportation is quoting the Americans With Disabilities Act (see excerpt below naming the exact piece of the legislature referred to). From other posters here, it seems that most people concur that Disney bus drivers do not "force" anyone to physically relinquish their seats, i.e. tell them they are being removed or some other type of demand that they leave. In fact, many are posting that the drivers do not say anything at all to anyone and some are speaking of sitting at a bus stop two hours while buses refuse to board them in their wheelchairs. Hence, the many postings here today, LOL!


"Under Department of Transportation (DOT) Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) regulations at 49 C.F.R. Section 37.167(j) bus operators are required to ask the person without a disability to move to another seat. If, after the operator asks, the person refuses to move, the regulations do not require the operator to compel this person to move. However, a transit operator can decide to adopt a policy requiring people to vacate the seats."

 

[livndisney]

That statement too contradicts itself.

I did find this which seems to say the signs on the bus are wrong-

38.105 Each vehicle shall contain sign(s)
which indicate that seats in the front
of the vehicle are priority seats for persons
with disabilities, and that other
passengers should make such seats
available to those who wish to use
them. At least one set of forward-facing
seats shall be so designated.
(b) Each securement location shall
have a sign designating it as such.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2011-title49-vol1/pdf/CFR-2011-title49-vol1-part38.pdf


And from the section you quoted

(j)(1) When an individual with a disability
enters a vehicle, and because of
a disability, the individual needs to sit
in a seat or occupy a wheelchair securement
location, the entity shall ask
the following persons to move in order
to allow the individual with a disability
to occupy the seat or securement
location:
(i) Individuals, except other individuals
with a disability or elderly persons,
sitting in a location designated as
priority seating for elderly and handicapped
persons (or other seat as necessary);
(ii) Individuals sitting in or a folddown
or other movable seat in a wheelchair
securement location.

Am I reading it correctly that even for tiedown locations, a person with a disability should not be asked to move?

 

[disney david]

That statement too contradicts itself.

I did find this which seems to say the signs on the bus are wrong-

38.105 Each vehicle shall contain sign(s)
which indicate that seats in the front
of the vehicle are priority seats for persons
with disabilities, and that other
passengers should make such seats
available to those who wish to use
them. At least one set of forward-facing
seats shall be so designated.
(b) Each securement location shall
have a sign designating it as such.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2011-title49-vol1/pdf/CFR-2011-title49-vol1-part38.pdf

well disney dose not have forward facing seats each transportation company words the signs differently. Here in nyc the signs on the train are different then the ones on the buses that the mta owns. i think if the ada would do a road trip across usa and inspect every bus they would find many have different wording. Disney dose have different signs on the windows saying you must give up the seat because of tie down points under neath well something like that. i also think that they are either changing the signs or the newer ones have different wording because i don't remember the please give up part i thought it was you mst offer these seat guest with disability or the elderly.



on a side note if disney did this would it be better may be word it differently

http://www.flickr.com/photos/esoteric_desi/7106423351/

 

[BillSears]

(j)(1) When an individual with a disability
enters a vehicle, and because of
a disability, the individual needs to sit
in a seat or occupy a wheelchair securement
location, the entity shall ask
the following persons to move in order
to allow the individual with a disability
to occupy the seat or securement
location:
(i) Individuals, except other individuals
with a disability or elderly persons,
sitting in a location designated as
priority seating for elderly and handicapped
persons (or other seat as necessary);
(ii) Individuals sitting in or a folddown
or other movable seat in a wheelchair
securement location.

Am I reading it correctly that even for tiedown locations, a person with a disability should not be asked to move?

I read it that in section (i) it talks about seats. In a seating area you have the exception for other individuals with a disability. So for seats it's first come first served.

In section (ii) there are no exceptions for other disabled people sitting in the folddown seats. For section (ii) the section concerning folddown seats everyone, regardless of disability, should move.

 

[livndisney]

well disney dose not have forward facing seats each transportation company words the signs differently. Here in nyc the signs on the train are different then the ones on the buses that the mta owns. i think if the ada would do a road trip across usa and inspect every bus they would find many have different wording. Disney dose have different signs on the windows saying you must give up the seat because of tie down points under neath well something like that. i also think that they are either changing the signs or the newer ones have different wording because i don't remember the please give up part i thought it was you mst offer these seat guest with disability or the elderly.



on a side note if disney did this would it be better may be word it differently

http://www.flickr.com/photos/esoteric_desi/7106423351/

Disney buses have forward facing seats.

I have seen both signs, should and must. But it sounds like the DOT says "should".

 

[disney david]

Disney buses have forward facing seats.

I have seen both signs, should and must. But it sounds like the DOT says "should".

in the front they face the the other side of the bus so the isle is wider for more standees. Yeah your right so that why it think disney is switching to must because i think must a better word and let you know their a chance you have to give it up . Should sounds more like if you want to give up the seat you can it not that strong of a word.

 

[canopynut66]

Because the drivers are not seat police if their is no wheelchairs when a guest boards they can seat at any seat they want. Keeping in mind there are signs clearly posted saying you must give up these seats so the driver really dose not have to say anything. When a wheelchair needs to board then The driver will tell the guest to move since most gust don't want to follow posted signs or rules. The drivers don't want to get into confrontation with the guest so that why some won't ask because guest like to complain to get free things and the drivers don't want to get in trouble.

Than you nicely put...and as you said it is "clearly posted" so the driver should never have to ask to begin with......................................................

 

[livndisney]

in the front they face the the other side of the bus so the isle is wider for more standees. Yeah your right so that why it think disney is switching to must because i think must a better word and let you know their a chance you have to give it up . Should sounds more like if you want to give up the seat you can it not that strong of a word.

I am not going to argue with you, a simple online search returns photos of forward facing seats on WDW buses. To say nothing of the entire back row of the bus is forward facing.

I do find it odd that WDW would change the words in the ADA. But from what I see the regs are about as clear as mud. No wonder people get frustrated with those with disabilities. As with many things at WDW ask 2 different CM's get 2 different answers.

SO on that note I will follow up with WDW to get the "real" answer.

 

[disney david]

I am not going to argue with you, a simple online search returns photos of forward facing seats on WDW buses. To say nothing of the entire back row of the bus is forward facing.

I do find it odd that WDW would change the words in the ADA. But from what I see the regs are about as clear as mud. No wonder people get frustrated with those with disabilities. As with many things at WDW ask 2 different CM's get 2 different answers.

Your right I was not trying to argue with you either.

I know they have forward facing seat ye in the back row and the back after the steps and yes on the nova their two right behind the driver seat your right. But where the tie downs and the front and back door their no forward facing seats on the lower level let say.

I think they need to put two cms in each bus one as a driver and one as a helper because when the bus pulls up the helper start to load te guest while the driver see of another needs to be loaded. Then the helper cm would be in charge of the seats and getting people up earlier and have a radio just in case they don't have a spot tey could call for another bus before it the doors open and ten explain to the guest what going on. It would raise customer service and hopefully cut down on complaints. Even I they only do that during peak times.

 

[SueM in MN]

Just to clarify. There is a difference between wheelchair/ECV seats and seats for those with disabilities. The tie down spots are for those in wheelchairs/ECVs. The spots near the front of the bus are for those with non-wheelchair/ECV disabilities. The signs above each area explain this:

Wheelchair/ECV use:

Other disabilities, I'm pretty sure this is a Disney bus sign but not 100% positive:

The First sign is the standard sign for above the seats that fold up for wheelchair/ECV accessible seats with tie downs.

The second sign is on the Disney buses over the seats which do not fold up.

There are some different variations on the signs. I don't know for sure, but I suspect that the signs are provided by the company when the buses are made and reflect the wording that was approved at the time the bus was made.

your right disney took the seating option that allows them to get more standees so they could get more people on the bus. they should make a couple row of seat facing the front and the tie down points against the wall. but that would mean less standee but more seat for guest. for the nova in public transportation sitting they have row of seat and two row in the fron with tie downs but they load through the front door. Disney got them to put the ramp on the back door so they could keep the tie downs where they are and make row out of the rest of the seats that would add at least two extra rows of seat but take away room for standees and then add strollers folded it would make it so they couldn't take as many guest as they can.

One of the other reasons besides more standing guests that I have heard from bus drivers, is that so many passengers were bringing very arge strollers that were difficult to load on the bus. So one of the big drivers in getting the buses with different seating arrangement was the change in the types of strollers people are bringing.
We have noticed this. Some of the strollers, especially the large double strollers, are nearly as large folded as my daughter's wheelchair is with her sitting in it.

thanks to SueM IN MN here the number the main WDW Operator/Information line: (407) 824-2222 ask to speak to a bus transportation supervisor. or if your at a resort bus stop you can use the phone their press 0 then ask to be transferred to a bus transportation supervisor.

There is information about reporting bus problems in the disABILITIES FAQs thread, in the post about buses.

No, please read the quotes above citing the ADA requirement. The bus driver is required to ask if anyone is able to move, but he is not able to force anyone to move.

Thank you for the voice of reason!

Yes.
The bus driver is supposed to ask if any of the people sitting in those seats are able to move. There is no requirement that people be forced to move.

These two posts contradict each other so which is correct? It would seem the sign on WDW bus is not correct according to the DOT. But I have seen other signs on WDW buses that quote DOT regs.

From what i understand, there are 2 different requirements.
One has to do with the regular seats and asking people who are not disabled to vacate those for people who need to set.
The other has to do with the accessible seats and asking anyone who is sitting in those seats to vacate them if they are needed by someone with a wheelchair or ECV.

That statement too contradicts itself.

I did find this which seems to say the signs on the bus are wrong-

38.105 Each vehicle shall contain sign(s)
which indicate that seats in the front
of the vehicle are priority seats for persons
with disabilities, and that other
passengers should make such seats
available to those who wish to use
them. At least one set of forward-facing
seats shall be so designated.
(b) Each securement location shall
have a sign designating it as such.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2011-title49-vol1/pdf/CFR-2011-title49-vol1-part38.pdf

Yes.
Two different types of signs for the two different types of seats. The seats with securement devices underneath have signs that specify they have them.

And from the section you quoted

(j)(1) When an individual with a disability
enters a vehicle, and because of
a disability, the individual needs to sit
in a seat or occupy a wheelchair securement
location, the entity shall ask
the following persons to move in order
to allow the individual with a disability
to occupy the seat or securement
location:
(i) Individuals, except other individuals
with a disability or elderly persons,
sitting in a location designated as
priority seating for elderly and handicapped
persons (or other seat as necessary);
(ii) Individuals sitting in or a folddown
or other movable seat in a wheelchair
securement location.

Am I reading it correctly that even for tiedown locations, a person with a disability should not be asked to move?

No.
that section again goes to the 2 types of seats.
(j) (1) is a section, which has 2 separate points under it (i) and (ii)

(i) is for the regular seats that have a sign designated for elderly or handicapped. (They are designated 'Priority seats')

(ii) is for the seats with securement devices underneath. The reasoning would be that guests who need the securement devices can ONLY sit in those seats, but guests with other disabilities who are occupying those seats could possibly move to another seat, if asked. (They are designated 'wheelchair securement locations')

If it meant what you think it means, there would be only need to be one point.

 

[SueM in MN]

These were sign pictures I took
Sept 2011 over the wheelchair securement locations

On another bus over the wheelchair securement location on the right side of the bus - also Sept 2011

I've noticed that similar buses have similar signs, which is why I think they are applied at the time the buses are made.
I have other pictures of the clear sign posted earlier.

 

[stitchlovestink]

We were just at WDW last week. I had to wait in my ECV while two complete buses loaded people who could stand, walk on, etc. We were ignored. (Yes, I DID wait in the regular line, and should have been on the first bus.)

I tried to reach transportation, but they are hidden somewhere without a telephone number. I complained at my resort. They very kindly called transportation, and assured me that transportation would call me. They did not call. We were at Disney for an additional 3 days, still not a single call from transportation. We tried at Guest Services, but again our complaints fell on those who couldn't help us, nor cared to.

I still feel awful about all of this. There is no "Mr. Disney" to go to when things aren't right. I will e-mail Guest Services, but it still feels awful. This trip was one we didn't know if we could make. I had some brain stem, spinal cord, discectomies, & cervical fusion surgery in June. I do not walk unaided.



I feel so purposely ignored. Someone should be there when a person feels bad. They are not. I just have to get over it.

I'm so sorry this happened to you and even more sorry that you feel no one at Disney is listening to you...

I too, had transportation issues while I was there...specifically leaving the MK in the evening. The same poor souls (CMs) saw me evening after evening. And we kept having the same problem repeat itself. I asked the transportation CMs working there how do we fix this problem. I didn't yell at anyone, raise my voice even, I kind of almost laughed because I couldn't believe how ridiculous this situation was and I knew it wasn't their fault at all...they were as frustrated as I was. They actually gave me a little phamplet that had LOADS of phone #'s in it that is only supposed to be given to CMs and told me to call a particular extension on this phamplet from my room because it would only work on property (because it was an extension not a full phone number) but it would connect me to the head of transportation. I had to laugh when I looked at this thing because it had VP's voice mail's phone #'s and all kinds of good phone #'s on it!!
Anyway, it was very frustrating the new way they are handling loading from MK. I had to wait for multiple buses to leave and it wasn't reasonable when I was AT THE FRONT of the line!!! But Mears buses aren't allowed to handle us. and then they double parked the next bus so that one couldn't load either... and they sent both of them out 1/2 full... So what was the point?? and they still had to bring in ANOTHER bus? This was only one of multiple loading issues I encountered at MK...I definitely learned patience there! I mean, I never got upset with the CM's working there, actually, I had some lovely conversations with them because it always seemed to be the same ones and I know it's NOT their fault! But the HIGHER UPS in transportation really need to re-evaluate the way they have told them to do this 'new system' as it is quite flawed!! I guess what it might mean for us is accepting that on busy nights we might have to be willing to be split from the rest of our party and limit the # of people...since they claim that abuse was such an issue. You can bring say 2 or 3 people with you but at park closing, you can't bring all 10 with you. The rest will have to get into the regular line. Apparently, the complaints are what caused the drastic changes to the policy. Everyone else complaining how scooters where coming up at the last minute and then bringing a dozen people onto the bus with them while everyone else had to wait in the regular line which I would understand why that would frustrate people. But when you are on an EVC and get passed up by bus after bus...well then maybe they could see how it feels to be on the other side of the fence.....

 

[disney david]

These were sign pictures I took
Sept 2011 over the wheelchair securement locations

On another bus over the wheelchair securement location on the right side of the bus - also Sept 2011

I've noticed that similar buses have similar signs, which is why I think they are applied at the time the buses are made.
I have other pictures of the clear sign posted earlier.

Your right since their federal laws saying they have to have them they most likely have to be put on by the manufacture.

Let me guess the top one was a nova or rtts since they used more for public transportation and hav the same sign. And the bottom one is the gillig.