anyone have experience w/ children and the new body scanners?

[Ariel on Land]

For my own personal reasons, I'd prefer my children not go through these things, but I'm curious if they'll use the "enhanced" patdown on minors if we opt out? Touching a child on their groin just screams illegal, but then again so do the body scanner images themselves, so I can't be sure! So have any of you had to deal with this yet? I can't find any concrete/official info on the matter.

 

[CPT Tripss]

You might want to visit flyertalk.com and their travel safety and security forum.

 

[jlewisinsyr]

Opting out equals a pat down. There is nothing illegal about a pat down, nor is it sexual.

 

[pilotwife_02]

I am going to opt out of having AIT for me and my children. I know both sides of the argument, and I have mad an informed decision that I will not allow them to be exposed to more radiation then needed, especially if there is an alternative.

So, with that being said I'm not sure about the groin patting, but I did want to make sure that if they get chosen for AIT and we opt out I will be able to accompany them to the private area IF they don't do a public one.

I emailed the TSA and this is their response:

"If a personal search is required, passengers may request a private area at any time during the screening process by telling the screener you want a private screening. A companion may accompany a passenger who needs assistance to the private screening after the companion clears screening. In addition, screeners should offer a private screening before beginning a pat-down inspection that will require displacing or lifting clothing. However, the passenger may choose to remain in the public area rather than go to a private area for screening. If passengers refuse screening in the public or private area, they will not be permitted to enter the secured area."

Not sure if this helps you or not, but thought I'd throw out that info.

 

[Beccabunny]

I have not yet decided what to do. I may just drive instead. I have real concerns about the radiation exposure. Yet, I can't see myself allowing someone to grope my eleven-year-old daughter, who has autism. My daughter has already been the victim of physical abuse when she was attending school. I was not even aware of the abuse for nearly two years, and she is still revealing details now. She has severe anxiety and is in therapy. We are trying so hard to educate her about all forms of abuse, including sexual abuse. At this time I don't think she has the capability to differentiate between security measures and sexual abuse. The options are not acceptable to me, and driving for 24 hours seems like the way to go.

 

[Lewisc]

I don't see how anyone can say they're making an informed decision to skip the scanners for health reasons. Virtually all the available information suggests they are completely safe.

The government has been wrong. I might have concerns if I worked in an airport and was getting screened several times a day. I might have concerns if I was a TSA employee standing next to the machine as part of my job.

People who fly a couple of times a year shouldn't be worried about the cumulative effects of radiation.

I think people are looking at the wrong issues. The question is if the large sums of money being spent for the new machines could be better spent enhancing security in other ways.

 

[jlewisinsyr]

Not trying to start an arguement, but stating that one is making an informed decision and using radiation exposure as the primary driver of the decision is really not making an informed decision.

The amount of radiation the body is exposed to during a single scan is around .07 microsievert (unit of radiation exposure). This compares to a 3 hour flight where the body is exposed to 10 microsievert. In other words you would need to be scanned 142 times before even coming close to the amount of radiation that you're exposed to flying from your house to Disney World.

These machines may be new to the airline transportation industry, but they are not new, they've existed for over 20 years and have been proven safe and reliable to the amount of radiation one is exposed to.

One other thing to note is there are also two types of machines, the above is in reference to backscatter, but there are also Millimeter Wave Scanners which use different technology and are really not related to typical radiation exposure.

 

[CPT Tripss]

Lew & Jlew - seems some guys at a pretty good health research place don't see it your way. Here is a summary of concerns raised by scientists at UCSF - the complete letter is at http://www.npr.org/assets/news/2010/05/17/concern.pdf

• A) The large population of older travelers, >65 years of age, is particularly at risk from the mutagenic effects of the X-rays based on the known biology of melanocyte aging.


• B) A fraction of the female population is especially sensitive to mutagenesis provoking radiation leading to breast cancer. Notably, because these women,
who have defects in DNA repair mechanisms, are particularly prone to cancer, X-ray mammograms are not performed on them. The dose to breast tissue beneath the skin represents a similar risk.


• C) Blood (white blood cells) perfusing the skin is also at risk.

• D) The population of immunocompromised individuals–HIV and cancer patients (see above) is likely to be at risk for cancer induction by the high skin dose.

• E) The risk of radiation emission to children and adolescents does not appear to have been fully evaluated.

• F) The policy towards pregnant women needs to be defined once the theoretical risks to the fetus are determined.

• G) Because of the proximity of the testicles to skin, this tissue is at risk for sperm mutagenesis.


• H) Have the effects of the radiation on the cornea and thymus been determined?

 

[goofy4tink]

You have two choices, well, maybe three. You can go through the WBI (if that is the option given at security), you can opt out and do a pat down, or you can drive.

For those who are saying that all this radiation is going to harm us...has anyone done any studies on these effects on those who 'fly' for a living??? Pilots, FAs, etc?? They are subjected to much more radiation than the public. Have to wonder what the situation is for them. We all realize that you get more radiation while in the air than you do going through the WBI machines.

I am not saying the radiation we are getting in these machines isn't going to be shown to be harmful, down the road. Just wondering what the specifics are for thoe pilots and FAs that are up there, exposed to all that stuff for hours on end, every day.

Oh, and the pat-downs??? They truly are not a huge deal. There have been some reports of agents getting up close and personal but they are not the norm. Thorough? Fine. But groping? I just don't think that's to be expected. But hey...I'll let you know after I fly next month.

 

[jlewisinsyr]

Lew & Jlew - seems some guys at a pretty good health research place don't see it your way. Here is a summary of concerns raised by scientists at UCSF - the complete letter is at http://www.npr.org/assets/news/2010/05/17/concern.pdf

I won't argue the point of the facts I provided in terms of the exposure level outside the other thread (there is no point to have 50 threads of the same thing). The information I provided is based on analysis and research with hard numbers, what you have presented is an opinion and some concerns generated by a group of individuals without hard factual numbers to support their concerns outside general statements.

The letter in its full script actually is a point to request another independent panel of researchers (outside the many that have already reviewed the impact of the scanners). It is a guise, nothing more, nothing less. Not saying these individuals are not intelligent, but you often have to question the motives.

 

[Ariel on Land]

Ok, I know this can be a viotile subject, and as I originally stated, we have our reasons to avoid the scanners, our minds are made up, so I'm not up to debating the safety of them or anything like that.

I just wanted to know if anyone on here has gone through with their families, how the pat-downs of children were handled. Like Becca has illustrated, we, as adults "understand" it as security, children don't. We teach our children it is NOT ok for anyone to touch them except for ourselves and their pediatrician. I'd like to hope the pat downs aren't that big of a deal, but since there have been a handful of reports that are causing distress to passengers, as a mom, I'm nervous!

 

[CPT Tripss]

I won't argue the point of the facts I provided in terms of the exposure level outside the other thread (there is no point to have 50 threads of the same thing). The information I provided is based on analysis and research with hard numbers, what you have presented is an opinion and some concerns generated by a group of individuals without hard factual numbers to support their concerns outside general statements.

The letter in its full script actually is a point to request another independent panel of researchers (outside the many that have already reviewed the impact of the scanners). It is a guise, nothing more, nothing less. Not saying these individuals are not intelligent, but you often have to question the motives.

As we must question the motives of the manufacturers of the scanners and the former public officials selling the scanners. Why add to your body's radiation exposure load for something that doen't provide a personal benefit?

Interesting that you post here to take pps to task for what they consider an informed opinion.

To OP, there is nothing that I can find that exempts people from pat downs based upon age.

 

[Ariel on Land]

To OP, there is nothing that I can find that exempts people from pat downs based upon age.

That's what I was gleaning myself, unfortunately. I'm wondering how they're handling diapers. One of my twins is potty trained, the other is not. The one in the diaper, if felt up against the diaper area, wouldn't really be "touched" but I wonder if the assinine security measures would require any more invasive detective work making sure there's nothing in the diaper itself. That would make me VERY upset for sure. (Although I couldn't promise any TSA agent they wouldn't encounter a load of poop! )

 

[NotUrsula]

I can't answer for the new machines because my children have not yet experienced them, but I CAN answer for the issue of children and patdowns, because my kids have experienced several of them.

Be very careful about how you approach the secure area. Make sure that you split the adults so that one of you precedes the children and one of you follows them, and it actually may be best to have the second adult let a few other people go before him/her but after the children. You will be asked to put your belongings down on the belt before you have the opportunity to request the secondary screening, and in all likelihood you will not be allowed to touch those belongings again until your patdown is complete. If you split the party, it means that by the time the second adult goes through, the first one should have cleared the screening process, leaving an adult always free to mind the children and belongings while not under TSA's direct physical control. (Because if you have not fully cleared yet and try to step out of line to wrangle a child, TSA will come down on you like a ton of bricks.) Leaving one adult a few steps behind the rest of the party (preferably one who *is* willing to go through the scanner) will be better for your peace of mind on that score.

Now then, as to the issue of being separated. Be aware that TSA essentially defines "not separated from" as "within sight of". What this means is that it is entirely possible that during the screening process you may be 10-15 feet away from your children, and/or on the other side of a glass wall from them. The distance usually isn't that extreme, but it can be, so your kids should be prepared for that. However, no matter what the distance, the one thing that is always true is that once each of you starts the actual secondary screening process, you may NOT touch one another unless both of the people touching have already been screened. If you are waiting to be screened and one of your already-screened kids touches you, or vice-versa, you will all have to be patted down again.

IME, patdowns of younger children tend to concentrate heavily on the diaper area, since hiding weapons in diapers is a known tactic. (It's a favorite tactic of smugglers, too.) They might peek down the back of the diaper, though that is rare, but they will not require removing it. If a child is obviously old enough to be past diapers, they are more likely to focus on the sleeves, torso and pant legs. Dressing the kids in more form-fitting clothing and avoiding any layering of clothes will help to minimize the invasiveness of the patdown.

 

[disney david]

I think the tsa will have to install diaper change stations through out the line so they dont have to worry about having a soiled diaper for the tsa agent. I didn't know that it such a problem but give the tsa a few months they come up with something to deal with diapers.

 

[Ariel on Land]

Now then, as to the issue of being separated. Be aware that TSA essentially defines "not separated from" as "within sight of". What this means is that it is entirely possible that during the screening process you may be 10-15 feet away from your children, and/or on the other side of a glass wall from them. The distance usually isn't that extreme, but it can be, so your kids should be prepared for that. However, no matter what the distance, the one thing that is always true is that once each of you starts the actual secondary screening process, you may NOT touch one another unless both of the people touching have already been screened. If you are waiting to be screened and one of your already-screened kids touches you, or vice-versa, you will all have to be patted down again.

.

I hadn't even thought about being separated. If they are to screen a younger child, they won't let the parent remain with them??? They're 3 years old! I really hate where all this security crap is going... I just wish they'd stick with the metal detectors. The bad guys are going to get stuff by whatever security measures are created, as we saw with the cargo bomb. I just wish our government would be a little more reasonable with it's citizens and not treat them like criminals when trying to travel. I suppose this will probably be our last flying vacation for a long time. But thank you for giving such a good heads up of what to expect!

 

[bumbershoot]

I just wanted to know if anyone on here has gone through with their families, how the pat-downs of children were handled. Like Becca has illustrated, we, as adults "understand" it as security, children don't. We teach our children it is NOT ok for anyone to touch them except for ourselves and their pediatrician. I'd like to hope the pat downs aren't that big of a deal, but since there have been a handful of reports that are causing distress to passengers, as a mom, I'm nervous!

I can't tell from your ticker when exactly your trip is (you don't have a line on the bottom saying x weeks/days until your trip), but if it's after mine, then I'll be able to tell you.

If the patdown is anything like it was 9/18/2001 going from Seattle to Baltimore, they'll use the back of the hand on most areas of the body, with the side of the hand going up as they go along the inner thigh (so it's the side of the hand that would come near or in contact with the "diaper area"). I experienced no "cupping" of anything, despite having an underwire bra (and I had metal toe inserts in my funky cool shoes which set them off too), and unless I had anything strange in an area, I wouldn't expect that part of their hands to be touching me now.

Only thing I'm worried about is our bags (so we'll make sure to follow notursula's advice and separate the adults, if hubby chooses to have a patdown as well, but he has done the machines already for work travel so I don't know what he'll choose) and the giggle fit DS is going to have b/c he's very ticklish.

As we must question the motives of the manufacturers of the scanners and the former public officials selling the scanners. Why add to your body's radiation exposure load for something that doen't provide a personal benefit?

I totally agree and thanks for that article.

 

[bumbershoot]

I hadn't even thought about being separated. If they are to screen a younger child, they won't let the parent remain with them???

No matter what, give yourselves PLENTY of time (better to have 2-3 hours in the secure area of the airport if all goes smoothly than to be anxious about missing a flight!) and stay calm calm calm. Stay calm for the kids' sakes, and stay calm for the TSA agents' sakes.

We once had a near issue in LAX when hubby's shorts zipper set off their metal detectors, and he was pulled away to be checked out. DS went through and stood there waiting. I went through and was setting off the detector, but I had no metal other than underwire. They got a bit ahead of themselves and were about to take me away, and as I was kindly and calmly reminding them that someone needed to be with DS (who was only 4), the lady behind me noted that I had a barrette in my hair that I'd forgotten about. (can you say WAY TOO STRONG metal detectors that day? LOL. They've never been that strong again in my experience, to have a zipper and barrette set them off) So I was able to take it out, put it in my last bin which hadn't yet gone through, and was able to go through one last time. Whew.

If I'd started flipping out, letting things go "too fast" and get out of control (even in my own head) it wouldn't have gone as smoothly. As it was, the TSA agents were very kind, helped us get everything back together (they knew we were about to miss our flight), as I put on my shoes I was able to counsel one guy to NOT let his wife win in a "let's go to Disneyland for the FIRST time for a ONE day trip ON xmas" conversation, and they cheered us on as we ran pell mell for the gate.

So stay calm as anything, keep your voice as quiet as you can so you don't sound shrill if they forget that you have TWO little kids (shrill=bad in most peoples' ears), stay calm, and have plenty of time.

 

[maxiesmom]

I hadn't even thought about being separated. If they are to screen a younger child, they won't let the parent remain with them??? They're 3 years old! I really hate where all this security crap is going... I just wish they'd stick with the metal detectors. The bad guys are going to get stuff by whatever security measures are created, as we saw with the cargo bomb. I just wish our government would be a little more reasonable with it's citizens and not treat them like criminals when trying to travel. I suppose this will probably be our last flying vacation for a long time. But thank you for giving such a good heads up of what to expect!

Actually, The US is pretty far behind many countries with how lax our security is, comparitively speaking. So far we have no dogs sniffing around, nor do we have to play 20 questions and show papers just to get onto airport property.

The government just can't thow up its hands and say "Oh well, they are gonna get something by us anyway. No use trying to stop the bad guys! Might as well not even try."

 

[NotUrsula]

I hadn't even thought about being separated. If they are to screen a younger child, they won't let the parent remain with them???

Like I said, it's all in how you define it. TSA will tell you that they are allowing you to remain with the child and will further tell you that they will not separate you from your child, but what they REALLY mean by that is that they will not take your child out of your line of sight. In most cases they will allow a parent to stand about 4 feet away while a child is patted down, but the layout of the area can increase that distance in some cases, or add in the glass wall layer. The whole "touching" prohibition is meant to keep you from quickly stashing something inside your child's clothing and then taking it back after you have been searched. Sometimes agents will allow you to keep hold of an older child's hand if they are just refusing to cooperate and making a scene no matter what you tell the kiddo, but IME that's a bit unusual; most of the time they wnat to follow the letter of the rule, which says that passengers who are awaiting screening and those who have already been screened are not to have any contact.

Again, I'll reiterate that this is my experience with a secondary search patdown after walking through the WMD, not a situation where I've deliberately requested a patdown for my whole party. That may be handled a bit differently, but personally I would prefer to be prepared for a worst-case scenario.

If you have a child who is too young to stand unaided, you will both be patted down together. The parent is patted down first, and then the parent normally holds the child out at arm's length under the armpits while TSA does their thing, unless you have an infant carseat that has already gone through the x-ray scanner, in which case they sometimes like to have you lay the baby down in the carseat and do the check that way.

The tricky thing with young kids over the age of one is that TSA expects them to stand still 4 or so feet away and wait for you while YOU are being searched, without holding your hand or trying to climb your leg while it happens. IME, toddlers will usually do one of two things under these circumstances, and standing still quietly isn't one of them. Usually they will either cling or try to bolt. I personally always use walking reins and a chest harness in airports for just this reason, making sure that the harness has no metal parts. I can let a TSO hold the harness strap if there is an issue, and I don't have to worry about the search being endlessly prolonged because DD had to be pried off me. (When I'm traveling without DH, that is. When I'm with him we prefer to do the split-the-parents thing. Our usual technique is actually to let Parent 1 go through with all the carryon bags first, and the second parent doesn't come through with the small kids until he is clear. That way, if there is a problem, DD can be checked and then released to him while I get through. We once had the experience of going through all together when DS was little and having both of the adults selected for secondary, but not the toddler. I tried and tried to tell the TSO's that I would be happy to go with them as soon as DH was cleared, but they didn't want to wait that 2-3 minutes. It was "MA'AM -- come with me NOW or I'll have to call a police officer. Just when it was about to get ugly, they let DH go, and we learned our lesson about going through together. I think that DS was 3 when that incident happened. BTW, it happened at DEN, which has notoriously hardline TSO's.)